# Why do Christian Fundies denounce their enemies as "humanists"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817 "2014-03-29T04:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/41 "2014-03-31T11:15:46Z")
In case anyone wants another example of the phenomenon the OP is describing - here’s one: > **[Chick.com: Humanists, Atheists Demanding More Privileges](https://www.chick.com/battle-cry/article?id=Humanists-Atheists-Demanding-More-Privileges)** > > Humanism seeks to establish heaven on earth by evolution's natural selection, technology's grand discoveries, psychology's personality enhancements, and the search for cosmic enlightenment. I think it was a Chick publication where I first encountered the use of ‘humanist’ as a pejorative term. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/42 "2014-03-31T14:34:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > In case anyone wants another example of the phenomenon the OP is describing - here’s one: > > [Chick.com: Humanists, Atheists Demanding More Privileges](http://www.chick.com/bc/2012/privileges.asp) > > I think it was a Chick publication where I first encountered the use of ‘humanist’ as a pejorative term. From reading your cite, it appears that the person in question is requesting that he be known as a humanist. It doesn’t appear to be a pejorative to him. The question of the OP’s title seems to be off-target. Fundamentalists do not denounce their enemies as “humanists”. Humanist appears to be selected by the humanists themselves. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/43 "2014-03-31T15:21:35Z")
In my experience Christians started being against secular humanism in the early 1970s when Francis Schaeffer and his book and film “How Shall We Then Live” became popular. It was a reaction to the militant atheism and secularism of the 1960s where there were suits by atheists such as Madelyn O’Hare that tried to denude public life of all religous content. The threat was that a society built on secular humanism had no way of judging morality other than utiliarianism. Utilitarianism could justify anything as long as the sought after goal was lofty enough. This was a part of anti-communism as communism was seen as the logical end of secular humanism. Since in communism religion is outlawed and great horrors were justified because of the paradise that was being ushered in. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/44 "2014-03-31T16:39:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From reading your cite, it appears that the person in question is requesting that he be known as a humanist. It doesn’t appear to be a pejorative to him. I didn’t get that from it, and I’m not sure how you did. Did you read the same thing as me? It’s an article about someone who wants ‘humanist’ to be recognised as a designation, but then it goes on to say (paraphrased) humanists suck and God is against them. For example: > [@](#): > > According to the most recent American Religious Identification Survey, approximately 30 million people in the United States identify themselves as atheist, humanist, freethinker or agnostic. > > But humanism is more central to mankind’s basic rebellion against his Creator. As Bradley points out, humanism is a philosophy that guides people, not just a declaration of no confidence in the existence of a Creator. > > In fact, Satan’s lie to Eve that she could “be as gods,” was the start of Bradley’s philosophy of humanism which elevates mankind to the supreme position in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/45 "2014-03-31T16:48:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > “You know who else had a definition of morality?” 😉 The OED? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/46 "2014-03-31T17:08:34Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I didn’t get that from it, and I’m not sure how you did. Did you read the same thing as me? Yes, I did. I got the part about how he wanted to be known as a humanist from his application to be known as a humanist. I got the part about his not considering it a pejorative from his statement that humanist is a more positive term for his philosophy than atheism. The question of the OP was why fundamentalists called their enemies “humanists”. The answer is that the term humanist is one chosen by the humanists themselves. It is rather like wondering why Democrats denounce their enemies as “Republicans”. No doubt lots of Democrats think the GOP sucks. I read a lot of them on these boards fulminating at length on the subject. But that doesn’t make “Republican” a denunciation in the speech of normal people. AFAICT the OP was trying, not with a lot of success, to argue that “humanist” was not a term fundamentalists should be using, because the human soul was more important than God, or something. This doesn’t make a lot of sense, especially since as mentioned “humanist” is the referential term that humanists chose for themselves. It’s not really denouncing someone to refer to them as they want. It is related to the insistence on both sides of the abortion debate to deliberately choose terms for the other side that are not what they chose for themselves. Both sides will heatedly insist that they are right to do so, because the other side is _really_ anti-whatever. Neither side wants the other side to label themselves. The fundamentalists are doing the opposite - using for the other side exactly the term they have chosen. That’s hardly denouncing them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/47 "2014-03-31T17:47:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In my experience Christians started being against secular humanism in the early 1970s when Francis Schaeffer and his book and film “How Shall We Then Live” became popular. It was a reaction to the militant atheism and secularism of the 1960s where there were suits by atheists such as Madelyn O’Hare that tried to denude public life of all religous content. Public life as in terms of government things, yes - just like the constitution says. Only practical way of making sure those with no religions or minority religions don’t get forced to act like they believe in the majority religion. Public as in non-government public life, not a bit. > [@](#): > > The threat was that a society built on secular humanism had no way of judging morality other than utiliarianism. Utilitarianism could justify anything as long as the sought after goal was lofty enough. This was a part of anti-communism as communism was seen as the logical end of secular humanism. Since in communism religion is outlawed and great horrors were justified because of the paradise that was being ushered in. Communism doesn’t like independent power centers - just like state religions didn’t in the old days. Being a Catholic in Elizabethan England was dangerous to your health. Preaching Catholicism was dangerous to your head. However, cite that religions was necessarily outlawed? I seem to recall there was a Pope who had been a priest and Cardinal in communist Poland. Doesn’t sound outlawed to me. Totally free, no. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/48 "2014-03-31T18:13:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > However, cite that religions was necessarily outlawed? I seem to recall there was a Pope who had been a priest and Cardinal in communist Poland. Doesn’t sound outlawed to me. Totally free, no. It was outlawed, and not just discouraged or interfered with, in [Albania…](http://bjoerna.dk/dokumentation/Albanian-Constitution-1976.htm#C.%20Education,%20Science,%20Culture) > [@Albanian Constitution of 1976](#): > > The creation of any type of organization of a fascist, anti-democratic, religious, and anti-socialist character is prohibited. > > Fascist, anti-democratic, religious, war-mongering, and anti-socialist activities and propaganda, as well as the incitement of national and racial hatred are prohibited. … and [Cambodia:](http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_cambodia1.html) > [@](#): > > Religion was banned, all leading Buddhist monks were killed and almost all temples destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/49 "2014-03-31T18:25:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Every Christian’s first duty is to save his own soul You can’t save your own soul AFAIK this is common christian religious teachings, Even though you can not and never will be able to, the good news is you don’t have to nor were ever expected to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/50 "2014-03-31T18:27:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You can’t save your own soul AFAIK this is common christian religious teachings, Even though you can not and never will be able to, the good news is you don’t have to nor were ever expected to. Are you claiming to have a direct line to your god? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/51 "2014-03-31T18:33:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you claiming to have a direct line to your god? 1 - You know me better then that 2 - I claim we all do, so by that, since I am one of ‘all’ yes I do (wow the magical 51’st post again) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/52 "2014-03-31T18:36:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, I did. I got the part about how he wanted to be known as a humanist from his application to be known as a humanist. I got the part about his not considering it a pejorative from his statement that humanist is a more positive term for his philosophy than atheism. Yes, it’s an article \*\*about \*\*someone who wants to be known as a humanist, but did you somehow not notice it’s **written by** someone who is a fundamentalist and hates humanists. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/53 "2014-03-31T20:17:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You can’t save your own soul AFAIK this is common christian religious teachings, Even though you can not and never will be able to, the good news is you don’t have to nor were ever expected to. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you claiming to have a direct line to your god? In that post, it’s obvious he’s not claiming that. He’s talking about a rather common and (for many) fundamental doctrine of Christianity - that Salvation is a gift from God and can’t be earned or bought. Surely you’ve heard of this? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/54 "2014-03-31T20:32:01Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Yes, it’s an article \*\*about \*\*someone who wants to be known as a humanist, but did you somehow not notice it’s **written by** someone who is a fundamentalist and hates humanists. Of course. But in the same way I am not denouncing the National Right to Life Committee by referring to them as “pro-life”, regardless of my position on abortion. Why do liberal fundies denounce their enemies as “conservatives”? IYSWIM. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/55 "2014-03-31T21:57:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course. But in the same way I am not denouncing the National Right to Life Committee by referring to them as “pro-life”, regardless of my position on abortion. > > Why do liberal fundies denounce their enemies as “conservatives”? IYSWIM. > > Regards, > Shodan That has more to do with your (apparent) view of the dynamics of the situation than it does about the details of the link I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/56 "2014-03-31T23:02:58Z")
If your point is that a term used by a group self-referentially cannot be used as an insult by those opposing them, you’re just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/57 "2014-04-01T02:56:22Z")
One of the standard accusations that come from the fundamentalists is that by declining their model of worship you are “worshipping yourself/humanity”. In brief, their position is that humanity is depraved and that anything of merit is due to the grace of god. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817.md?page=2)