# Why Do Christians Feel So Victimized - Defined Edition
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 8, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652 "2014-04-08T16:55:27Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/41 "2014-04-08T20:05:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Substitute “pit bull” and you might have something there.
I think pit bull owners face far, far more systemic persecution, whether rationally or irrationally, than Christians do, so I’d rather not make that substitution and will stick with poodle-owners.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/42 "2014-04-08T20:06:04Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> - I don’t really “hate” Christians. They do have some strange ideas though. Still, they’re no worse then the Mormons, I guess.
_Now_ you’ve gone and done it. :smack:
😃
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/43 "2014-04-08T20:31:12Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> People (I’m looking at you Fox News) have told Christians that they’re subjected to discrimination like “we can’t say ‘Merry Christmas’ anymore,” or “you can’t wear a cross to school,” or have a bible study club after school, or they’re taking the cross out of the LA City flag. Of course, you can say Merry Christmas to anyone you want, even on the Fourth of July. You can wear a cross wherever you want. You can pray anywhere you want. And, IIRC, Los Angeles refused to remove the cross from its flag.
>
> But, if you didn’t know all that, you might think you’re being persecuted.
I think this is a great point. If you genuinely start to believe that you aren’t allowed to pray in public, because people keep telling you that you aren’t for their own reasons, then you’d justifiably believe that you were being persecuted.
The source of the problem, then, is that message. And the reason for that message is probably ignorance in some cases and almost certainly an attempt at political power for the rest. There are certainly people who spread it because they believe it, but more who spread it because it serves their purposes.
So, what’s the solution for that? I always think the best solution for ignorance is education, and that might be true here, too. But there is also just a sense that it’s something we’re just going to have to wait out.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/44 "2014-04-08T20:41:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I’ve already touched on what I suspect is the key element underlying American Christians’ claims of persecution: their declining influence.
>
> …
>
> So: are Christians actually subject, in the United States today, to treatment that produces objectively severe suffering in any systematic way? No.
You could have just said that in the other topic and not derail it.
For what its worth, I agree with this. Christians are not being persecuted, they are not victimized, they are not harassed or attacked in any significant way that is serious. They are losing their power and they feel scared, that’s why they claim victimization, because they think it’ll get people to back off on attacking them and allow them to hold on to their power for just a little while longer
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/45 "2014-04-08T20:44:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> A park fundraiser for a city park sells bricks to the community; the bricks can be engraved with an inscription chosen by the donor to be included in a neighborhood park walkway.
>
> Does paying for the message “Jesus is the Cornerstone,” on one brick count as “inflicting their beliefs on others?”
>
> How about wearing a cross while acting as a student government leader at a university function?
Without any other information, I’d say the first example is in a gray area I’d call on the side of the freedom of the religious - it doesn’t really make sense to single out the message just because it’s religious in nature. The second example, her freedom of expression as a student government leader, although it should be within the rights of the university to set guidelines in general as to how they behave, including the limiting of politically or religiously-charged symbols. Is this the persecution Christians are talking about?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/46 "2014-04-08T20:46:44Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> You could have just said that in the other topic and not derail it.
>
> For what its worth, I agree with this. Christians are not being persecuted, they are not victimized, they are not harassed or attacked in any significant way that is serious. They are losing their power and they feel scared, that’s why they claim victimization, because they think it’ll get people to back off on attacking them and allow them to hold on to their power for just a little while longer
For some, maybe, but I think a large part of it is that being a victim, being _persecuted_, is a large part of their Christian identity. The End Times are coming soon to relieve their pain, therefore they _must_ be in pain.
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### Author:  [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/47 "2014-04-08T21:05:34Z")
For some other examples, adding a [star and crescent](http://onenewsnow.com/culture/2008/12/16/multicultural-displays-neutering-christmas#.U0RaI_ldV8E) to a public display for the holidays is an assault on religion.
A few years back, an email was circulated regarding the USPS and a holiday stamp for Eid.
> [@](#):
>
> How ironic is this??!! They don’t even believe in Christ and they’re getting their own Christmas stamp, but don’t dream of posting the ten commandments on federal property?
Never mind that stamps for Christmas are put out every year, showing other faiths is a horrible wrong.
Regarding various companies -
> [@](#):
>
> You may be surprised to learn what your favorite companies support with the money you spend with them.
> Some take corporate positions diametrically opposed to a biblical worldview that ultimately **threaten our religious freedom as Americans**.
Things like not being ‘neutral’ on social issues (typically gay issues) are among the crimes of these companies. Neutral seeming to mean take our side and not show anything overtly gay.
There are plenty of others, these are just a few I remembered. Point being, there is a lot of belief that persecution of a so-called assault on Christians are merely things they happen to disagree with.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/48 "2014-04-08T21:37:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> A park fundraiser for a city park sells bricks to the community; the bricks can be engraved with an inscription chosen by the donor to be included in a neighborhood park walkway.
>
> Does paying for the message “Jesus is the Cornerstone,” on one brick count as “inflicting their beliefs on others?”
It depends. If the brick becomes part of city property, perhaps it is inappropriate. I wonder how the donor would feel about another brick which says “There is no God.” If these cases are treated equivalently then there is no specific attack on Christianity, is there, and the problem is a religious message in general, not the contents of the message.
> [@](#):
>
> How about wearing a cross while acting as a student government leader at a university function?
Already covered, I see. People overstepping the bounds of their authority do not represent persecution unless they are unofficially given the green light by their superiors - which did not happen in this case.
To put the shoe on the other foot, when my wife was in elementary school a teacher asked the class where they went to church. She did not go to church, as was made to feel singled out and somehow inferior. Back in those days you didn’t rock the boat, but say she did. If the teacher was made to apologize, would that still be the school system inflicting religion on others? What if the teacher was given sanction to do this? Do you agree that the teacher’s action was inflicting Christianity (since this was a pretty much Christian town) on people?
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/49 "2014-04-08T21:39:40Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> People (I’m looking at you Fox News) have told Christians that they’re subjected to discrimination like “we can’t say ‘Merry Christmas’ anymore,” or “you can’t wear a cross to school,” or have a bible study club after school, or they’re taking the cross out of the LA City flag. Of course, you can say Merry Christmas to anyone you want, even on the Fourth of July. You can wear a cross wherever you want. You can pray anywhere you want. And, IIRC, Los Angeles refused to remove the cross from its flag.
>
> But, if you didn’t know all that, you might think you’re being persecuted.
Ah, so Fox News is persecuting Christians.
Works for me.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/50 "2014-04-08T21:43:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> You could have just said that in the other topic and not derail it.
I did. [Cite.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17248179&postcount=185)
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/51 "2014-04-08T21:47:05Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Without any other information, I’d say the first example is in a gray area I’d call on the side of the freedom of the religious - it doesn’t really make sense to single out the message just because it’s religious in nature. The second example, her freedom of expression as a student government leader, although it should be within the rights of the university to set guidelines in general as to how they behave, including the limiting of politically or religiously-charged symbols. Is this the persecution Christians are talking about?
Sure, those are examples that undoubtedly fuel discussions of Christian persecution.
But I was originally responding to a post which claimed that Christians should not feel negative consequences – that despite claims to the contrary, no one is telling them they can’t wear a cross.
And I was rebutting that claim.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/52 "2014-04-08T21:55:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> It depends. If the brick becomes part of city property, perhaps it is inappropriate. I wonder how the donor would feel about another brick which says “There is no God.” If these cases are treated equivalently then there is no specific attack on Christianity, is there, and the problem is a religious message in general, not the contents of the message.
The case was a real one, in Chicago. No person attempted to purchase a brick that said, “There is no God.” The following messages, among many others, were permitted:
[ul]
[li]Peace on Earth[/li][li]Respect Nature, Seek Understanding, Truman & Emily[/li][li]Bootsie Albert Drennan, Best Cat Ever![/li][/ul]
Two bricks’ messages were rejected:
[ul]
[li]Missy, EB & Baby: Jesus is the Cornerstone. Love, Mom & Dad[/li][li]Immanuel Lutheran Church–with thanks to God for our neighbors[/li][/ul]
> [@](#):
>
> Already covered, I see. People overstepping the bounds of their authority do not represent persecution unless they are unofficially given the green light by their superiors - which did not happen in this case.
Without getting into “persecution,” would you agree that having to fight to exercise your rights, after they have been denied by someone later determined to be “overstepping authority,” is fairly described as a “negative consequence?”
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/53 "2014-04-08T22:44:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> A park fundraiser for a city park sells bricks to the community; the bricks can be engraved with an inscription chosen by the donor to be included in a neighborhood park walkway.
>
> Does paying for the message “Jesus is the Cornerstone,” on one brick count as “inflicting their beliefs on others?”
>
> How about wearing a cross while acting as a student government leader at a university function?
I think all reasonable people would agree that there are some public expressions of religion (a private citizen wearing a cross necklace while going about their daily business) that are clearly acceptable and should be protected, and some (mounting a massive crossbar on the Washington monument to turn it into a cross, with a huge Jesus/Washington effigy hanging crucified on it) that are not. Which means that somewhere in the middle is a dividing line, and that dividing line is NOT always obvious and will not always be agreed upon by reasonable people, nor will it always be agreed upon by various branches and levels of government.
So there will basically inevitably be some situation where someone takes some action which someone else views as overstepping those bounds, and the first person is stopped from taking that action (possibly with other attendant minor consequences), and then the case wends is way up the food chain, and then that decision is reversed, and it turns out that the action “should” have been allowed in the first place.
I suppose that it’s possible to describe that chain of events as someone experiencing negative consequences for being a Christian, but doing so in any way which somehow implies that something sinister was at work, or someone’s rights were nefariously violated, or that the person who initially stopped the action and was later overruled is necessarily evil/wrong/malevolent; is fairly silly and melodramatic.
Furthermore, saying “hey, here are 5 examples of situations in which some Christian attempted to do something involving public displays of religion and was not allowed to do so”, and implying that this demonstrates a pattern of poor treatment is pretty meaningless without knowing how many other similar cases there were which came out the other way, or cases where Atheists sued to have the 10 commandments removed from a courthouse and lost, etc, etc, etc.
To put it another way, saying “Christians in America suffer consequences, even very minor consequences, for being Christian” has very different connotations than “there have been incidents in America in which which individual Christians have suffered negative consequences for being Christian”. The first implies a pattern, the second does not. (And there’s also a need for a qualifier on the “for being Christian” part, because most of these examples did not involve someone just living their life as a Christian and then suddenly, hey, blammo, a consequence; most involved that person choosing to take some out-of-the-ordinary action.)
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/54 "2014-04-08T22:56:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> So there will basically inevitably be some situation where someone takes some action which someone else views as overstepping those bounds, and the first person is stopped from taking that action (possibly with other attendant minor consequences), and then the case wends is way up the food chain, and then that decision is reversed, and it turns out that the action “should” have been allowed in the first place.
>
> I suppose that it’s possible to describe that chain of events as someone experiencing negative consequences for being a Christian, but doing so in any way which somehow implies that something sinister was at work, or someone’s rights were nefariously violated, or that the person who initially stopped the action and was later overruled is necessarily evil/wrong/malevolent; is fairly silly and melodramatic.
I certainly agree that “evil,” and “malevolent,” are off the table.
It does seem safe to use “wrong,” in some of these instances.
More to the point, I never said or implied anything sinister was at work, that rights were nefariously violated, or that evil or malevolence was afoot.
> [@](#):
>
> Furthermore, saying “hey, here are 5 examples of situations in which some Christian attempted to do something involving public displays of religion and was not allowed to do so”, and implying that this demonstrates a pattern of poor treatment is pretty meaningless without knowing how many other similar cases there were which came out the other way, or cases where Atheists sued to have the 10 commandments removed from a courthouse and lost, etc, etc, etc.
My claim was that poor treatment exists: that the incidence of poor treatment is not zero.
> [@](#):
>
> To put it another way, saying “Christians in America suffer consequences, even very minor consequences, for being Christian” has very different connotations than “there have been incidents in America in which which individual Christians have suffered negative consequences for being Christian”. The first implies a pattern, the second does not. (And there’s also a need for a qualifier on the “for being Christian” part, because most of these examples did not involve someone just living their life as a Christian and then suddenly, hey, blammo, a consequence; most involved that person choosing to take some out-of-the-ordinary action.)
Ok, I will adopt your revision. There have been incidents in America in which which individual Christians have suffered negative consequences for being Christian.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/55 "2014-04-08T23:08:33Z")
As an incidental note, it is indeed correct to say the amount of persecution faced by American Christians is not zero.
After all, the range was specified “on a scale of 1 to 10.” Zero by definition is not possible.
The correct answer is one.
---
### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/56 "2014-04-08T23:13:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Ok, I will adopt your revision. There have been incidents in America in which which individual Christians have suffered negative consequences for being Christian.
Do you also agree that for basically ANY group, certainly anything as large and prominent as a religion, you can say “there have been incidents in American in which individual Xs have suffered negative consequences for being X”?
And do you further agree that if you were to sort all the groups that one can belong in based on how likely one is to suffer negative consequence for being in that group, Christianity is WAY WAY WAY over on the “unlikely to suffer consequences” side of the list? (Ignoring groups like “people whose blood type is B negative” and “people who were born in March”.)
If so, I think that is why so many of us non-Christians react so strongly to this type of discussion. Maybe being Christian is non-zero on the persecution-o-meter, even though in an ideal world it would be at zero on the persecution-o-meter. But if basically NO group is at zero on that meter, and Christians are one of the lowest groups on that meter, than complaining about how they’re not at zero is not only silly and somewhat dishonest, it’s massively insulting and frustrating to non-Christians. (PARTICULARLY given how much of the persecution other groups suffer is caused by Christians.)
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/57 "2014-04-09T00:04:51Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> But if basically NO group is at zero on that meter, and Christians are one of the lowest groups on that meter, than complaining about how they’re not at zero is not only silly and somewhat dishonest, it’s massively insulting and frustrating to non-Christians. (PARTICULARLY given how much of the persecution other groups suffer is caused by Christians.)
I don’t feel insulted or frustrated, massively or otherwise. I find it all kind of predictable, truth be told.
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### Author:  [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/58 "2014-04-09T03:05:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> If not directly, then indirectly, but with a pretty clear causative trail.
>
> Businesses that serve a monolithically Christian populace have no particular incentive to ask their employees to substitute “Happy Holidays,” for the eponymous traditional Christmas greeting. But when there’s an influx of non-Christians, and those non-Christians spend dollars, stores have an obvious motive to tread more carefully.
So what’s the problem with this?
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### Author:  [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/59 "2014-04-09T03:15:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> The case was a real one, in Chicago.
[TONG v. CHICAGO PARK DIST.](http://www.leagle.com/decision/2004961316FSupp2d645_1908.xml/TONG%20v.%20CHICAGO%20PARK%20DIST.)
> [@](#):
>
> Without getting into “persecution,” would you agree that having to fight to exercise your rights, after they have been denied by someone later determined to be “overstepping authority,” is fairly described as a “negative consequence?”
One could argue, from the court’s analysis, that the issue was religious statements in general, not specifically Christian statements.
Discussion of which might actually be a different topic than this thread is addressing – do religious people feel persecuted by a government that attempts to be secular.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/60 "2014-04-09T03:28:33Z")
Indeed. Is there any reason to assume a brick that said “There is no God but God and Muhammad is his messenger” would have been accepted?
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