# Why Do Christians Feel So Victimized - Defined Edition
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 8, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652 "2014-04-08T16:55:27Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/81 "2014-04-09T14:02:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> You are moving the discussion.
> The question was not “Why SHOULD Christians feel persecuted?” but “Why DO Christians feel persecuted?”.
>
> Arguing that they should not have certain feelings addresses a different question. You may assert that their reasons are baseless, (I generally agree), but asserting that their motivation is unfounded is not the same as actually answering the question.
If we’re just answering the question, this should be in GQ, and could have been locked after post #3.
Who can argue that it isn’t the erosion of Christian Dominance fueling these claims of victimization? We went from 60 years ago having the President sign a law stating
> [@Ike](#):
>
> From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty… In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America’s heritage and future
to Christians today being unable to get a Nativity display in the town square.
The fact that they want to use the words Victim, Persecute and War to describe this erosion of influence is something I think is fair to discuss.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/82 "2014-04-09T14:09:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Another case in point, people going bananas about keeping “In God We Trust” on our coins. Nobody is advocating its removal, but if you genuinely believed that someone was, then you might feel persecuted.
[Nobody?](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/in-god-we-trust-lawsuit_n_2867227.html)
> [@](#):
>
> The Freedom From Religion Foundation and 19 other plaintiffs mounted a lawsuit against the U.S. Treasury Department and other government officials this week, claiming that they are discriminating against nonbelievers by including the phrase “In God We Trust” on the nation’s currency.
>
> “Our government is prohibited from endorsing one religion over another but also prohibited from endorsing religion over nonreligion. The placement of a monotheistic ideal on our nation’s currency violates this stricture and is therefore unconstitutional,” FFRF Co-President Dan Barker said in a statement.
>
> The plaintiffs, represented by lawyer and atheist Michael Newdow, argue in the lawsuit that they “are forced to proselytize – by an Act of Congress – for a deity they don’t believe in whenever they handle money.”
> .
> .
> .
> Similar challenges to the appearance of “In God We Trust” on national currency have failed. In 2011, a case also filed by Newdow made it all the way to the Supreme Court, only to be rejected.
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Ditto for “Under God” in the pledge of allegiance. NOBODY is trying to remove it, but certain Christians have convinced themselves that someone is.
Yes, ditto for that; [it’s weird that Christians](http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/massachusetts_supreme_judicial_14.html) would think otherwise, huh?
> [@](#):
>
> BOSTON — The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court will begin hearing arguments Wednesday in a lawsuit claiming the “under God” line from the Pledge of the Allegiance violates the state’s equal rights law.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/83 "2014-04-09T14:25:07Z")
Alright, there are some fringe groups out there. But the little bit of ceremonial deism that “In God We Trust” represents is hardly an endorsement of Christianity. As for the Pledge, well who gives a shit?
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/84 "2014-04-09T14:30:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Alright, there are some fringe groups out there. But the little bit of ceremonial deism that “In God We Trust” represents is hardly an endorsement of Christianity. As for the Pledge, well who gives a shit?
I agree that neither the Pledge nor the money is an endorsement of Christianity.
But your argument seems to have turned completely around. I understand that Christians are moved by these stories, you said, but the stories are false.
Now that you learn the stories are true, you immediately reverse your analysis: now it’s “Who gives a shit?”
That seems inconsistent to me.
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/85 "2014-04-09T14:31:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> I reject that. There are numerous open Christians here who get essentially no flak for their faith, and every time I’ve seen Christians “suffer negative consequences” it’s not simply because they’re Christians, it’s because they said something that was silly, or because… well, **Der Trihs** was in the thread, but I think we can all agree that he’s kind of an outlier. Do you have any examples of Christians here getting abuse simply for being Christian?
Can you explain why you think that the first example that springs to mind should be ignored? You seem to be saying it doesn’t happen, apart from when it does.
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/86 "2014-04-09T14:32:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> [Nobody?](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/in-god-we-trust-lawsuit_n_2867227.html)
>
> Yes, ditto for that; [it’s weird that Christians](http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/massachusetts_supreme_judicial_14.html) would think otherwise, huh?
How serious a threat would you call this case?
---
### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/87 "2014-04-09T14:41:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you explain why you think that the first example that springs to mind should be ignored? You seem to be saying it doesn’t happen, apart from when it does.
I think you’re going to chime in to provide that explanation yourself, if you want one that doesn’t simultaneously prove (for example) that one cannot legitimately ignore Fred Phelps as an example of Christianity.
---
### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/88 "2014-04-09T14:41:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I agree that neither the Pledge nor the money is an endorsement of Christianity.
>
> But your argument seems to have turned completely around. I understand that Christians are moved by these stories, you said, but the stories are false.
>
> Now that you learn the stories are true, you immediately reverse your analysis: now it’s “Who gives a shit?”
>
> That seems inconsistent to me.
Let me revise and say there is no realistic threat to either the motto or the pledge. Fringe groups always press nutty lawsuits. I’m not worried about some tax protester winning a case on the basis of gold fringe on a flag and right wing Christians shouldn’t worry about lawsuits filed by fringe groups.
---
### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/89 "2014-04-09T14:46:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I agree that neither the Pledge nor the money is an endorsement of Christianity.
>
> But your argument seems to have turned completely around. I understand that Christians are moved by these stories, you said, but the stories are false.
>
> Now that you learn the stories are true, you immediately reverse your analysis: now it’s “Who gives a shit?”
>
> That seems inconsistent to me.
I’m not seeing the inconsistency. It’s equivalent to saying that, no, the legal system is not under attack in any meaningful sense of the word because somebody filed a screed asserting that the gold fringe on the flag made the court’s proceedings illegal.
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### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/90 "2014-04-09T15:16:00Z")
Removing God from the Pledge and from our money isn’t Christian persecution, it’s ending persecution of the rest of us. Now, if we wanted to replace it with “your God is stupid” they might have a point.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/91 "2014-04-09T15:22:34Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> Removing God from the Pledge and from our money isn’t Christian persecution, it’s ending persecution of the rest of us. Now, if we wanted to replace it with “your God is stupid” they might have a point.
I agree with half. The Pledge is asinine, nobody should ever say it, Lincoln never did, Washington never did, etc. To me, it’s about as creepy as the Hitler Youth.
A little ceremonial deism on the coin really to me seems pretty harmless. My eyes are getting too old to read the damn thing anyway.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/92 "2014-04-09T15:30:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> How serious a threat would you call this case?
Not remotely serious, for two reasons:
1. It has a tiny probability of success
2. Since neither the Pledge nor the motto endorse Christianity, it follows that their removal does not diminish Christianity
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### Author:  [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/93 "2014-04-09T15:31:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> How serious a threat would you call this case?
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Let me revise and say there is no realistic threat to either the motto or the pledge. Fringe groups always press nutty lawsuits. I’m not worried about some tax protester winning a case on the basis of gold fringe on a flag and right wing Christians shouldn’t worry about lawsuits filed by fringe groups.
I thought the question was - _Why Do Christians Feel So Victimized - Defined Edition_?
Court cases by “unknown” persons to remove the word God from anything and everything could conceivably cause Christians to feel victimized. The fact that such a court case could land in the Massachusetts Supreme Court could also conceivably cause Christians to feel victimized.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/94 "2014-04-09T15:32:31Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#):
>
> I’m not seeing the inconsistency. It’s equivalent to saying that, no, the legal system is not under attack in any meaningful sense of the word because somebody filed a screed asserting that the gold fringe on the flag made the court’s proceedings illegal.
That’s not accurate. The “gold fringe,” type attacks are legally meritless.
The lawsuits in question raise colorable legal issues.
It’s like saying that the chance to win the office football pool is small, and the chance to win the MegaMillions Lottery is small – therefore, they are the same.
---
### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/95 "2014-04-09T15:33:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Not remotely serious, for two reasons:
>
> 1. It has a tiny probability of success
> 2. Since neither the Pledge nor the motto endorse Christianity, it follows that their removal does not diminish Christianity
Yes and no. I’ve heard Christians act offended by general “secularization” of modern society.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/96 "2014-04-09T15:39:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> 1. Since neither the Pledge nor the motto endorse Christianity, it follows that their removal does not diminish Christianity
I agree, but many of these brittle Christians wouldn’t. They may well think “of COURSE the God of the coin and the pledge is the Christian God”. So I can see a logic that they would perceive discontinuing them would be a threat to their faith.
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/97 "2014-04-09T15:40:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Can you explain why you think that the first example that springs to mind should be ignored? You seem to be saying it doesn’t happen, apart from when it does.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Because one outlier does not a trend make. The overwhelming rule here is that Christians do not have to take a lot of crap simply for being Christians. There’s one example that comes to mind where this is not true; one _single_ poster (who is mocked quite openly for doing so, mind you) who anyone here is likely to be able to name off the top of their heads, and then maybe a handful of people who are antagonistic to the concept of religion and faith but do not treat Christians badly so much as simply ask questions that are uncomfortable for them (myself, probably quite a few others, but definitely not more than a dozen or so).
The reason I exclude **Der Trihs** as an obvious outlier is because we’re not talking individual cases, we’re talking _trends_. And one relatively non-prolific poster does not a trend make. I mean, I’d certainly place “People who give Christians shit for little to no reason” far above Christians on the scale of “who gets the most shit around here” given how people react to **Der Trihs**. Lawyers would probably be way up there as well.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/98 "2014-04-09T15:40:36Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> Yes and no. I’ve heard Christians act offended by general “secularization” of modern society.
Sure – but that goes back to the overarching question. Christians offended by that trend are, in effect, saying that their negative effect is a diminution of the historically unbalanced influence that they have wielded in the past.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/99 "2014-04-09T15:46:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#):
>
> I also agree that those crying persecution are a small, noisy part of the circle ‘christians’ and are only getting ink because they make for a good soundbite. Ignoring them is the best solution, keeping an eye on them and not engaging them another one.
I’m not seeing ignoring them until they become too big a problem to ignore as a viable solution to the problem. How big a problem would you have it become before you would do anything, and what _would_ you do(if anything?).
---
### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/100 "2014-04-09T15:53:36Z")
> [@Antinor01](#):
>
> The basic answers from what I can see are two-fold -
>
> 1. They’re used to Christianity holding a place of preeminence in US society. Any lessening of that exalted place is viewed as persecution,
>
> 2. They truly believe that what their book tells them is the absolute truth. All other religions are false and don’t deserve the protections they are afforded for that reason.
Two additional reasons (copied from the previous thread):
1. From the Jewish slavery in Egypt, and exile in Babylon, onto the Jesus suffering on the cross, and then the persecution of the early church by the Romans, there is a general theme in Christianity that earthly suffering for your beliefs is holy. So even if they aren’t actually suffering for their religion they have a moral imparative to feel as if they are.
2. In our culture there is a strong desire to root for the underdog. So to make themselves sympathetic they have to convince themselves that they are on the losing side.
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