# Why Do Christians Feel So Victimized - Defined Edition
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 8, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652 "2014-04-08T16:55:27Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/101 "2014-04-09T15:58:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> What, specifically, was the question you claim I evaded?
Your reaction to an atheist block. I’m quite well aware that no such block was proposed.
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/102 "2014-04-09T16:09:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Let me revise and say there is no realistic threat to either the motto or the pledge. Fringe groups always press nutty lawsuits. I’m not worried about some tax protester winning a case on the basis of gold fringe on a flag and right wing Christians shouldn’t worry about lawsuits filed by fringe groups.
I’m not sure I agree. I think there are some things that Christians worry about (or at least claim to worry about) which are utterly baseless. There’s zero possibility that, 50 years from now, it will be illegal for churches to exist and to have steeples and crosses and little signs out front with pithy sayings. There’s zero possibility that all the Christians will be rounded up and put in Obama’s UN-run work camps. There’s zero possibility that the White House will become the White Mosque. Those are things that no one wants to happen (with “no one” needing some modification to allow for TRULY fringe-y fringe groups).
The probability that “In God We Trust” might be removed from US money is very very low, but that is something that substantial portions of the US population are in favor of. As in, measurable single digits or so. And it’s something that one can make a creditable constitutional argument for. So with demographic shifts and maybe a shift in prevailing political climate… well, I’d say it’s certainly unlikely, but I don’t think it’s something that can be dismissed as impossible.
(Of course it’s also in no way anti-Christian, nor is it persecution by any meaningful definition of the word. But that’s another issue.)
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/103 "2014-04-09T16:18:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Evading the question, I see.
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> What, specifically, was the question you claim I evaded?
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Your reaction to an atheist block. I’m quite well aware that no such block was proposed.
You never asked me for my reaction. You said you wondered what the donor would feel. Here is your post:
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> It depends. If the brick becomes part of city property, perhaps it is inappropriate. I wonder how the donor would feel about another brick which says “There is no God.” If these cases are treated equivalently then there is no specific attack on Christianity, is there, and the problem is a religious message in general, not the contents of the message.
I’m happy to answer what my personal reaction is, though. As long as the “There is no God,” donor paid the requisite fee, I have no objection whatsoever to the brick’s inclusion.
I of course feel the brick’s message is in error, but I also feel that Bootsie Albert Drennan was not the best cat ever. That doesn’t stop the brick donor from offering the opinion, of course.
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### Author:  [@Harg\_Fargusen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harg_Fargusen)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/104 "2014-04-09T16:19:55Z")
Speaking as a Bible only fundamentalist, I sense no persecution _as such_ going on in the West; at least not in the U.S. It is occurring to Christians in various areas of the world, but not here - or if it is, it’s typically limited to a one-on-one scale. That, I have experienced and technically qualifies as persecution, but I don’t whine about it…we were told it’s to be expected.
A post from yesterday speaking of Christian’s perceived declining influence in society is part of the problem, and I’m not surprised some would class that as persecution. But I am one of a minority that believes in keeping to a bare minimum entanglement in political and otherwise temporal worldly affairs, which seems to have become a religion unto itself, or at least a non-negotiable point of doctrine, among many Christians I personally know (largely due to crypto-Reconstructionist and Replacement theology influences that have crept into the Body of Christ unawares). My two cents as an insider.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/105 "2014-04-09T16:25:30Z")
> [@Harg\_Fargusen](#):
>
> (largely due to crypto-Reconstructionist and Replacement theology influences that have crept into the Body of Christ unawares). My two cents as an insider.
Could you explain these two terms, please?
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### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/106 "2014-04-09T16:28:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> I reject that. There are numerous open Christians here who get essentially no flak for their faith, and every time I’ve seen Christians “suffer negative consequences” it’s not simply because they’re Christians, it’s because they said something that was silly, or because… well, **Der Trihs** was in the thread, but I think we can all agree that he’s kind of an outlier. Do you have any examples of Christians here getting abuse simply for being Christian?
I think the board lost a lot with the death of **Polycarp**. Not to diminish the effect on his family by any means. I think there was a loss when **Diogenes** managed to get himself banned as well. What this board needs is people who can understand and discuss big issues like theology and theodicy. Not only that, but also smaller subjects such as the history of pre-millennial dispensationalism or the prosperity gospel and why they’re both complete loads of crap.
I think there’s a breakdown of “victimization” along denominational lines. In my experience, I have never heard much of this idea from Catholics or the mainline Protestant groups (say Episcopalian, some Lutherans, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) or even from the various Anabaptists. It seems to come from the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and “non-denominational” mega-churches and prosperity theologists. I’m going to have to think a bit more (and don’t have time right now) on how I want to argue the point without it coming across as something as simplistic as “stupid fundamentalists.”
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### Author:  [@Harg\_Fargusen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harg_Fargusen)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/107 "2014-04-09T16:34:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Could you explain these two terms, please?
They’re more or less the same thing, or very closely related. The basic assumption is that God is forever finished with national Israel in any form and has been replaced by the Body of Christ in God’s ultimate purposes for the world. Those who assume such feel free to claim all the O.T. blessings and prophecies directed to Israel (they tend to ignore the curses and warnings, oddly). That assumption results in a further assumption that it’s up to Christians to work to usher in or help manifest the actual Kingdom of Christ on earth. Political activism and ecumenism in the name of socio-political causes naturally follows. Some believe the Kingdom must be established by force, if necessary, but they’re in the relative minority. Most believe earnest political involvement = obedience to Christ. That’s basically it in a nutshell.
I could name names within modern evangelicalism (and outside of it) that are very much involved in the goals of reconstructionism (whether they fully realize it or not) but I won’t bother. One can simply look around and spot them pretty easily.
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### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/108 "2014-04-09T16:59:02Z")
> [@asterion](#):
>
> I think there’s a breakdown of “victimization” along denominational lines. In my experience, I have never heard much of this idea from Catholics or the mainline Protestant groups (say Episcopalian, some Lutherans, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) or even from the various Anabaptists. It seems to come from the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and “non-denominational” mega-churches and prosperity theologists. I’m going to have to think a bit more (and don’t have time right now) on how I want to argue the point without it coming across as something as simplistic as “stupid fundamentalists.”
I wonder if it might come from the evangelical belief that not only are they correct in their beliefs but that their correctness is so self evident that those who don’t follow their brand of Christianity are either uniformed or are willful god haters (see Chick tracts). When seen in this light, the only possible explanation for anyone acting against the promotion of Christianity must be a tool of the devil who hates god and so therefore hates god’s servants (ie Christians).
Combine this with a literalistic view of the bible, which warns repeatedly that Christians will suffer persecution and you are good to go.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/109 "2014-04-09T17:08:41Z")
> [@asterion](#):
>
> I think there’s a breakdown of “victimization” along denominational lines. In my experience, I have never heard much of this idea from Catholics or the mainline Protestant groups (say Episcopalian, some Lutherans, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) or even from the various Anabaptists.
You have not met my Catholic family.
They are persecuted for their faith, their money, and for their politics (very right-wing). It’s quite tragic.
I still think there’s just an aspect of people wanting to be liked, and feeling hurt when they are kisliked, so they have to make the “dislike” something grand instead of “I’m acting like an asshole so people don’t like me.” And when they cave to the pressure, they want it to seem like they caved to something serious and threatening rather than “I caved because people didn’t like me.”
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### Author:  [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/110 "2014-04-09T17:32:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Because one outlier does not a trend make. The overwhelming rule here is that Christians do not have to take a lot of crap simply for being Christians. There’s one example that comes to mind where this is not true; one _single_ poster (who is mocked quite openly for doing so, mind you) who anyone here is likely to be able to name off the top of their heads, and then maybe a handful of people who are antagonistic to the concept of religion and faith but do not treat Christians badly so much as simply ask questions that are uncomfortable for them (myself, probably quite a few others, but definitely not more than a dozen or so).
(post shortened for clarity)
If you’re referring to a certain pit thread, there were _several_ posters who were mocked quite openly. I don’t believe anyone actually felt persecuted by the comments in that thread. IMHO, of course.
You seem to be under the impression that Christians aren’t persecuted sufficiently for them to feel persecuted.
Non-Christians have felt sufficiently persecuted to the point where they chose to file lawsuits in order to stop church bells from pealing and school children from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Do you believe the non-Christians are sufficiently persecuted by ringing bells and pledge recital for you to consider them to be persecuted?
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/111 "2014-04-09T17:49:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Do you agree that if you were to sort all the groups that one can belong in based on how likely one is to suffer negative consequences on the SDMB for being in that group, Christianity is on the upper portion of the list? (Ignoring, again, oddball classifications like “people whose blood type is B negative” and “people who were born in March”.)
That’s a legitimately complicated question, as it involves a variety of “it depends what you mean by…” type issues.
For instance, I can quite confidently state that no one has ever been mistreated purely for BEING a Christian on the SDMB… as long as they never revealed that they were Christian. (Which may seem like a ridiculous distinction to make, but I’m sure there were plenty of blacks in Apartheid South Africa who would have been happy to live their lives never mentioning that they were black if it let them avoid mistreatment.)
There’s also the distinction between mistreatment directed at Christianity vs mistreatment directed at Christians. (If you, as a Christian, read a thread in which a bunch of people are saying how evil Christianity is, but no one says “oh, and Bricker is a jerk”, does that count as mistreatment?)
Then there are certainly distinctions between different branches of Christianity. If someone goes into a gay marriage thread and says “…and I’m so proud that my local Methodist church, where I’m a deacon, which has been pro-gay-marriage for years, was the site of the first legal gay marriage in (my state)…” are they going to be mistreated for being a Christian? Heck, that person is a DEACON!
All of that said, yes, it’s certainly the case that there exists on the SDMB a non-trivial level of hostility towards Christianity as an institution that sometimes spills over into hostility towards individual Christians such as you. On the other hand, it could be worse. I mean, at least you’re not a REPUBLICAN!!! (oh, wait…)
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/112 "2014-04-09T17:51:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#):
>
> (post shortened for clarity)
>
> If you’re referring to a certain pit thread, there were _several_ posters who were mocked quite openly.
I was referring to **Der Trihs** ; without context that post is pretty unclear. I mean one poster in the sense of one poster who gives Christians shit just for being Christian. Even that might be an overstatement of his position. And he gets a lot of flak for being perceived to hold that position.
> [@](#):
>
> You seem to be under the impression that Christians aren’t persecuted sufficiently for them to feel persecuted.
I’m under the impression that depending on how Christians define “persecuted”, we can either not care (because their definition is so ubiquitous and non-threatening that virtually everyone else is more persecuted) or they simply aren’t.
> [@](#):
>
> Non-Christians have felt sufficiently persecuted to the point where they chose to file lawsuits in order to stop church bells from pealing and school children from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Do you believe the non-Christians are sufficiently persecuted by ringing bells and pledge recital for you to consider them to be persecuted?
In the case of the church bells lawsuit, the problem was not “I am being persecuted for my beliefs”, it was “[OH MY GOD THESE BELLS ARE RUINING MY LIFE!](http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20140109-narragansett-residents-complaint-on-church-bells-not-articulated-in-lawsuit-judge-says.ece)” As in, going off upwards of 700 times a week. Basically, it was a noise complaint that became a religious issue when he was told that his locality’s noise ordinances had a religious exception - i.e. Christian privilege was allowing the behavior, which he was perfectly justified in complaining about, to continue. I don’t know how you get from that to “persecuted”, or even begin to draw parallels. I don’t consider him “persecuted”; I don’t think _he_ considers him “persecuted”. It’s got nothing to do with persecution.
I don’t know which lawsuit you’re referring to with regards to the pledge of allegiance, but again, same issue - are they complaining that they’re persecuted? Or is the issue more “we think this favors religion, runs against what a secular state stands for, and violates the first amendment”? Personally, I think it’s the latter.
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### Author:  [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/113 "2014-04-09T18:26:59Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> …I’m under the impression that depending on how Christians define “persecuted”, we can either not care (because their definition is so ubiquitous and non-threatening that virtually everyone else is more persecuted) or they simply aren’t.
“More persecuted”? Doesn’t that imply they are persecuted but not as much as someone else?
I wonder why some people feel so persecuted by Christians saying Christians are persecuted that they would feel the need to publically object to Christians saying they are persecuted. Imagine a world where people can have an opinion without getting permission to have that opinion. Absolute chaos. :rolleyes:
_You people aren’t persecuted enough to feel persecuted and we demand you stop talking about subject!_
- the Thought Police
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/114 "2014-04-09T18:29:44Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> For instance, I can quite confidently state that no one has ever been mistreated purely for BEING a Christian on the SDMB… as long as they never revealed that they were Christian. (Which may seem like a ridiculous distinction to make, but I’m sure there were plenty of blacks in Apartheid South Africa who would have been happy to live their lives never mentioning that they were black if it let them avoid mistreatment.)
Isn’t that more of an “on the internet, nobody knows youre a dog” type of thing, though?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/115 "2014-04-09T18:47:08Z")
A thought occurs: “Christians” as a vague group don’t (and have never) actually had power or influence. Rather, power and influence is concentrated in a relative handful of individuals or families or corporations. If they feel that power threatened, it’s certainly in their interest to get the general and normally powerless Christian masses on their side (and thus giving them money and/or votes) by pretending that the faith overall is under attack.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/116 "2014-04-09T20:07:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> You never asked me for my reaction. You said you wondered what the donor would feel. Here is your post:
>
> I’m happy to answer what my personal reaction is, though. As long as the “There is no God,” donor paid the requisite fee, I have no objection whatsoever to the brick’s inclusion.
>
> I of course feel the brick’s message is in error, but I also feel that Bootsie Albert Drennan was not the best cat ever. That doesn’t stop the brick donor from offering the opinion, of course.
I did garble the question. Here it is - given that you feel (and I agree) that the two bricks should be treated the same way, is the “persecution” here against religious expression as a part of public land as opposed to being about Christianity?
Whether or not they were correct in rejecting the brick is immaterial in this thread if they would reject any religiously themed brick. I’m including specific denial of religion in religiously themed.
If you allow a Christian prayer group in school but not an Islamic one, you can be said to be singling out Islam. If you allow neither you can’t be, though it is pretty clear that both should be allowed.
I’d love to see Fox claim a war on religion, especially if they use Christian groups trying to prevent mosques from being built as an example.
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/117 "2014-04-09T20:08:43Z")
> [@doorhinge](#):
>
> “More persecuted”? Doesn’t that imply they are persecuted but not as much as someone else?
It would imply that… by a definition that is totally ridiculous (see also: how the previous thread on this subject devolved). And I’d probably get on their case about that as well.
> [@](#):
>
> I wonder why some people feel so persecuted by Christians saying Christians are persecuted
…Whatchoo talkin’ 'bout, Willis? Who here implied that they were persecuted by that? Methinks you’re trying to call things that aren’t persecution persecution… Like in the “bell” example?
> [@](#):
>
> that they would feel the need to publically object to Christians saying they are persecuted.
That’s not because we feel we’re being persecuted, it’s because it’s annoying, untrue, and leads to a totally warped worldview that we think should be fought against. This has nothing to do with us feeling “persecuted”, any more than we press charges against a burglar because he “persecuted” us.
> [@](#):
>
> Imagine a world where people can have an opinion without getting permission to have that opinion. Absolute chaos. :rolleyes:
…Honestly, I’m not sure how you got from point A to point B here. Like, at all.
> [@](#):
>
> _You people aren’t persecuted enough to feel persecuted and we demand you stop talking about subject!_
>
> - the Thought Police
No. Try this instead:
“You people feel persecuted but are not being persecuted. Get some perspective before your flawed worldview develops into real consequences for the rest of us. You have the right to feel like you’re being persecuted, but we think you’re very stupid for doing so.”
- Rational Human Beings
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/118 "2014-04-09T20:13:00Z")
> [@doorhinge](#):
>
> Non-Christians have felt sufficiently persecuted to the point where they chose to file lawsuits in order to stop church bells from pealing and school children from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Do you believe the non-Christians are sufficiently persecuted by ringing bells and pledge recital for you to consider them to be persecuted?
Of course not. But atheists may have read polls suggesting that a substantial majority of Americans believe they should be unable to hold public office, for example, and may end up feeling a wee bit persecuted therefore.
Note the changing in wording: it’s not non-Christians per se who object to the Pledge of Allegiance’s theistic add-on, but rather atheists. I don’t think that many more Muslims or Jews have a problem with this add-on than do Christians.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/119 "2014-04-10T00:13:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> I did garble the question. Here it is - given that you feel (and I agree) that the two bricks should be treated the same way, is the “persecution” here against religious expression as a part of public land as opposed to being about Christianity?
> Whether or not they were correct in rejecting the brick is immaterial in this thread if they would reject any religiously themed brick. I’m including specific denial of religion in religiously themed.
>
> If you allow a Christian prayer group in school but not an Islamic one, you can be said to be singling out Islam. If you allow neither you can’t be, though it is pretty clear that both should be allowed.
Sorta.
The problem I see with your claim is that because no non-Christian religious messages were offered to test the theory, we cannot be clear on the limits of the policy – a policy that was, by the way, not explained or published in advance.
In any event, the Park District was wrong on the law: they can’t prohibit all religious messages.
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### Author:  [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-feel-so-victimized-defined-edition/685652/120 "2014-04-10T01:51:00Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> Removing God from the Pledge and from our money isn’t Christian persecution, it’s ending persecution of the rest of us. Now, if we wanted to replace it with “your God is stupid” they might have a point.
You admit to feeling persecuted. That’s a good start. According to some in this thread, it would be acceptable for me to say that I don’t believe you are persecuted enough for you to publically say you are persecuted.
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