# Why do Christians openly worship torture-murder and practice cannabalism? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721 "2013-02-08T18:41:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/41 "2013-02-08T22:16:19Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > I’m parodying nothing, merely asking a straightforward question that puzzles me and choosing to do it in the same manner as the religionists asking about atheist creationism etc. - rather tastelessly and with no regard to the sensibility of the topic. > > I mean, you people EAT your god-avatar? Simple answer, no. People eat bread or a cracker, not an entity. They don’t drink blood either, they drink wine or water. In all sincerity, you’re asking a question on a board filled with noisy atheist and quiet believers. These threads always head down the same track. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/42 "2013-02-08T22:16:27Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But maybe we’re arguing semantics. At any rate, for Roman Catholics, the bread and wine are not a symbol of Christ’s flesh and blood. They believe that the bread and wine are literally Christ’s flesh and blood. It is absolutely arguing semantics. It’s not far from angels dancing on the head of a needle. You are absolutely right that Catholics do not believe it is a symbol (although most protestant denominations do), but I don’t think it’s right to say they view it as actually physically becoming flesh/blood. It’s more of a spiritual or “essential” conversion. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/43 "2013-02-08T22:19:08Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > With allowances for hyperbole, I believe you, but I doubt it’s because they made an Aristotelian distinction between accidents and substance. It’s because most Catholics, like most other Christians, never learned much about their denomination’s teaching, beyond what they were taught as children. When I was in college and brought up the subject during BS sessions with Catholic friends, several of them had never heard of transubstantiation. And to allow for the other option: there are undoubtedly many Catholics who know the doctrine, perhaps even understand it, but still think it’s false. I think a great many Catholics have areas where they believe Catholic doctrine is incorrect but they still remain Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/44 "2013-02-08T22:22:55Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > It is absolutely arguing semantics. It’s not far from angels dancing on the head of a needle. You are absolutely right that Catholics do not believe it is a symbol (although most protestant denominations do), but I don’t think it’s right to say they view it as actually physically becoming flesh/blood. It’s more of a spiritual or “essential” conversion. I grew up Catholic, so I’m not sure what you mean. I was taught to believe that the bread was the actual body of Christ. Like, here’s one story to illustrate: In both grammar and high school we were taught very clearly that the Holy Eucharist is literally his body. There is a story the nuns and brothers told about a priest who didn’t believe in the literalness of this, and, one day, when he was breaking bread for communion, the communion wafer actually started bleeding, and the priest regained his faith in the transubstantiation, yaddayaddayadda. Anyhow, I don’t buy that shit, but it was made quite important to us, that we literally believed the communion was the physical manifestation of Christ, and that we were eating his body and blood. But, I suppose it’s possible my flavor of Catholicsm was different than others, so I’d like to hear others’ experiences in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/45 "2013-02-08T22:23:57Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > That is why you can’t throw the Host in the trash or wash the wine cup in the sink where any left over “blood” may end up in the sewer. I don’t know about that. My church doesn’t have a doctrine of transubstantiation, but we _do_ handle the elements of the eucharist reverently and dispose of them in a respectful manner. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/46 "2013-02-08T22:36:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I grew up Catholic, so I’m not sure what you mean. I was taught to believe that the bread was the actual body of Christ. Like, here’s one story to illustrate: In both grammar and high school we were taught very clearly that the Holy Eucharist is literally his body. There is a story the nuns and brothers told about a priest who didn’t believe in the literalness of this, and, one day, when he was breaking bread for communion, the communion wafer actually started bleeding, and the priest regained his faith in the transubstantiation, yaddayaddayadda. As I understand it, that story from the nuns is not a reflection of Catholic belief (although I guess it could have been a miracle outside of the normal miracle of transubstantiation). As I read it, the _substance_ of the bread/wine is changed to be wholly that of the body/blood. But it’s appearence/smell/taste/etc changes not one whit. So while it is “literally” body/blood in the _substance_ sense, it would never actually look or taste or smell like it. It is only through spiritual reflection and faith that the miracle occurs (or something like that). Like someone said, it’s pretty ancient theology/philosophy and has been disregarded by most branches of Christianity (although, admittedly, not the largest one). > [@](#): > > Anyhow, I don’t buy that shit, but it was made quite important to us, that we literally believed the communion was the physical manifestation of Christ, and that we were eating his body and blood. But, I suppose it’s possible my flavor of Catholicsm was different than others, so I’d like to hear others’ experiences in this matter. That is true, I think. Catholic doctrine definitely says that the Eucharist is wholly transformed into the substance of the body/blood. It just doesn’t physically (again, depending on what you mean by physically) become flesh and blood. I have some Catholics coming to visit this weekend, maybe I’ll ask them what they think (or maybe not, such topics are sometimes touchy…). ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/47 "2013-02-08T22:37:08Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > Seriously? I also grew up in the Cathlic church and that is exactly what they believe. That is why you can’t throw the Host in the trash or wash the wine cup in the sink where any left over “blood” may end up in the sewer. So what do you do with the last few drops of wine left in the cup? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/48 "2013-02-08T22:41:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When people believe things without evidence that are impossible, claiming that they are unreasonable is perfectly reasonable itself. And when their behavior is blatantly cruel and bigoted, calling their behavior obviously immoral is also reasonable. However, moral and reasonable people may disagree with you in some cases about what counts as “impossible” or “blatantly cruel and bigoted”. And that’s the part you seem to have trouble with. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/49 "2013-02-08T22:42:48Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > That is true, I think. Catholic doctrine definitely says that the Eucharist is wholly transformed into the substance of the body/blood. It just doesn’t physically (again, depending on what you mean by physically) become flesh and blood. Well, I guess that’s the nuance that wasn’t really made clear in our lessons. I personally don’t know what the difference between the two states are. To me, the statement that “the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, as the Church has always taught. Although they still look like bread and wine, they have, by divine power, actually changed into His Body and Blood” to me means that it physically has become flesh and blood, but, as you say, depends on what you mean by “physically.” ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/50 "2013-02-08T22:56:50Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So what do you do with the last few drops of wine left in the cup? The cup is rinsed with water and poured into a special sink that drains directly into the ground. My brain is taunting me by not remembering the Latin name for that particular object. ETA: _piscina_! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/51 "2013-02-08T23:09:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > However, moral and reasonable people may disagree with you in some cases about what counts as “impossible” or “blatantly cruel and bigoted”. > > And that’s the part you seem to have trouble with. Amazingly enough yes, I have trouble considering people who in the name of their religion lie and oppress and abuse and engage in bigotry and commit murder “moral”. I guess it’s just a burden I’ll have to bear. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/52 "2013-02-08T23:22:57Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Now can I say it’s still dickish to post intentionally inflammatory OPs because some people believe in transubstantiation? All Christians that use communion are accepting it as ritual cannibalism; quite a few have distanced themselves from the original doctrine that the wafer and wine literally transform into the body and blood of Christ - but it’s not deniable. I may have stated it with discomforting baldness, but I did not state it as a purely inflammatory comment. It really is one of those points where, if it flicked you on the raw, consider why that spot is raw. I notice the first part of the question is being largely ignored. Isn’t anyone going to argue that whipping, beating, jamming spikes on the head, crucifixion and stabbing represent metaphors? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/53 "2013-02-08T23:32:35Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > A point I bid you remember the next time you’re tempted to bitch and moan about feminism running amok. When porcines become aeriform. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/54 "2013-02-08T23:42:27Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > All Christians that use communion are accepting it as ritual cannibalism; quite a few have distanced themselves from the original doctrine that the wafer and wine literally transform into the body and blood of Christ - but it’s not deniable. I may have stated it with discomforting baldness, but I did not state it as a purely inflammatory comment. It really is one of those points where, if it flicked you on the raw, consider why that spot is raw. > > I notice the first part of the question is being largely ignored. Isn’t anyone going to argue that whipping, beating, jamming spikes on the head, crucifixion and stabbing represent metaphors? OK, well, a little cannibalism never killed no one. See you at Mass! Seriously, what’s your point? This is a well-flogged horse. (Well-flogged by the days of Irenaeus and Maimonides and Chrysostom, when these accusations and recriminations first surfaced.) If you think you’re cluing us into anything new, I’m afraid that isn’t so. But when I eat some scrumptious JC this Sunday, a little bit of me will be delighted to know this apparently vexes (at least enough to take to the Internets and start and monitor a dopey thread) you to no end. Then, to heighten the passion, I will say a prayer for the salvation of your immortal soul. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/55 "2013-02-08T23:43:24Z")
I cannot imagine that a resurrected Jesus would be happy with his “followers” wearing and worshipping at, the symbols of his torture and death. Couldn’t have been pleasant. I believe not a bit of it anyway. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/56 "2013-02-08T23:46:36Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > OK, well, a little cannibalism never killed no one. See you at Mass! > > Seriously, what’s your point? This is a well-flogged horse. (Well-flogged by the days of Irenaeus and Maimonides and Chrysostom, when these accusations and recriminations first surfaced.) If you think you’re cluing us into anything new, I’m afraid that isn’t so. > > But when I eat some scrumptious JC this Sunday, a little bit of me will be delighted to know this apparently vexes (at least enough to take to the Internets and start and monitor a dopey thread) you to no end. Then, to heighten the passion, I will say a prayer for the salvation of your immortal soul. 🙂 Do not pray for my soul, it is fine and has a nice warranty **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/57 "2013-02-08T23:46:45Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > Atheist here, just curious: Why do you Christians obsess over and venerate gruesome torture-murders as the centerpiece of your beliefs, and participate in ritual cannibalism you believe is real in celebration of that belief? > [@NitroPress](#): > > I notice the first part of the question is being largely ignored. Isn’t anyone going to argue that whipping, beating, jamming spikes on the head, crucifixion and stabbing represent metaphors? Ummm…because it is quite believable that was [an acceptable form of punishment for that time period?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion) Obsess? Centerpiece? Cannibalism? Celebration? You have more explaining to do about your projections on Christians, rather than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/58 "2013-02-09T01:44:39Z")
Torture? Murder? Cannibalism? Fuck, that’s how I roll, bitches! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/59 "2013-02-09T02:23:46Z")
The Eucharist and eating the flesh of your god did actually not originate with Christianity – ever heard of the [mystery cults](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_roots_of_Catholic_Eucharistic_theology#Alleged_origins_in_mystery_religions)? While the church may say it’s not connected, it’s still not unique to the Catholic church. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m under no obligation to pretend that the person who ostracizes and abuses his child for being an atheist or rapes women because they are lesbian is moral and reasonable. :dubious: Are you seriously arguing that _every single Christian_ out there does that and/or encourages? If so, you’ve seriously gone around the bend. I seriously think you’re unbalanced. Sometimes I wonder what your childhood was like. The world is not as black and white as you paint it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721/60 "2013-02-09T02:42:05Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > All Christians that use communion are accepting it as ritual cannibalism; quite a few have distanced themselves from the original doctrine that the wafer and wine literally transform into the body and blood of Christ - but it’s not deniable Sure, but ‘magic cannibalism’ without the butchering of somebody is a very different beast. What moves cannibalism from the neutrally bizarre to the morally reprehensible bizarre is killing somebody. People are weirdly, macabre-ly fascinated by the Donner party eating their dead, or those soccer players in the Andes, but I don’t think anybody really judges them. > [@](#): > > I notice the first part of the question is being largely ignored. Isn’t anyone going to argue that whipping, beating, jamming spikes on the head, crucifixion and stabbing represent metaphors? I’ve never trucked with people that look lovingly at bloody crucifix paintings, but huh? That’s not metaphor. Christians don’t worship the torture and pain Jesus endured. They empathize with his suffering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christians-openly-worship-torture-murder-and-practice-cannabalism/649721.md?page=4)