# Why do cities often have hellhole ghetto inner cores? Any solution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813 "2009-02-21T03:57:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/21 "2009-02-21T20:01:04Z")
It depends upon the city and the industry that grew up there. It depends upon transport links, if there was a substantial rail/train system you will have a very differant outcome to a newer city which has no such infrastructure. Newer cities are geared toward car use, older ones are often limited by that previous infrastructure. Extremely large cities are differant again, attracting an inner city living elite where housing is extremely expensive. So really you are going to have to pick your city and its own particular history, you can perhaps select a city of a type and compare with others of the same typs, but in the US, the growth and types of industry are so diverse this is probably not a useful excercise. You have certain one-industry towns and cities in the US, in the UK not quite so much - the one industry places tend to be towns rather than cities. You are going to have to look into local history to discover what you want to know which will in all liklehood mean a visit to your local library and museum. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/22 "2009-02-21T20:14:07Z")
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the creation of government housing projects. Originally intended as low income appartment housing, they have essentially became crime and drug infested eyesores where we warehouse the poor. As already pointed out, those who could started fleeing to the newly created suburbs in the 50s after WWII. This started a vicious circle of “white flight” as urban centers lost their tax base resulting in worse schools and decreased services. The loss of manufacturing jobs in places like Bethlehem, PA; Bridgeport, CT; Detroit, MI; Pittsburg, PA; and Newark, NJ also contributed to the problem as those with the means moved to suburbs where crime was lower. In the past few decades, there has been a trend towards gentrification of formarly blighted urban centers. The old joke is first the starving artists move in, then the gays, then the Yuppies. A prime example of this is NYC under Guilianni. One way he did this was to Disney-fy Times Square. A slew of movies and tv shows glamorizing Manhattan life in the 80s and 90s certainly helped too. The downside to this is as the desirability of the inner cities increases, rising costs push low and middle income families furthur out or into pockets of undesirable locales. An example of this is Boston (as I remember it about 10 years ago). Downtown is relatively expensive. Even “Southie” was becoming gentrified. Just to the north and south are communities like Charleston and Roxbury that are poorer and more blue collar. And then you get into the North and South Shores which are pretty nice. A lot of these poor neighborhoods are that way because they are in undesirable locations near indistrial parks or airports or other NIMBY detractors. So the only people who live there are the ones who have no choice. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/23 "2009-02-21T20:28:04Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Yo, **brazil84** , do you have any useful critiques of **even sven** ’s explanation for the “ghettoization” of the inner city? I don’t think **even sven** was recommending any fixes for the problem (like pressuring banks to give loans) or suggesting that dumping money into specific school districts was a method of reversing the trend, he was just trying to answer the OP. What problems do you see with his answer? The problems I see are that historical evidence suggests that her explanations are incorrect. > [@](#): > > If I understand you correctly, you are saying that ghettos exist because of a self-destructive underclass that is defined significantly by their genetic makeup and that the only hope we have in improving their behavior is to develop some new drugs that make people smarter (so their genes make then not only self destructive, but stupid too). Not exactly. > [@](#): > > 1. It does not explain the evolution of ghettos through American history. In the past their have been ghettos in the US that were populated by Poles, Italians, the Irish, etc… In the main these ghettos have disappeared and the underclass of the day has been replaced by a new underclass as they were absorbed into the middle class. Or perhaps the situation improved vis-a-vis education, nutrition, and discrimination? You seem to be assuming that I am claiming genetics is the sole cause of the underclass, which I am clearly not claiming. > [@](#): > > 1. There are many examples of families that have almost identical genetic makeup and upbringings that have members in the middleclass suburbs and in the inner city ghettos. I’m a little confused – are you talking about identical twins? Can you give me some examples? > [@](#): > > 1. Specifically, since the majority of American ghettos these days are predominately African American, we should be able to see a measurable difference in the IQs of this genetic group when compared to the largely successful genetic groups that also exist in this country (say ethnic Germans or those with their ancestors from the UK). These tests can easily be controlled to remove the affects of poverty and education so we are comparing apples to apples. Actually these tests have already been done and very little difference exists between these genetic groups. I’m not sure I see your point, but I think it’s an interesting question. For example, suppose one looks at children’s SAT scores and divides them into 4 groups: (1) white children from wealthy families; (2) white children from poor families; (3) black children from wealthy families; and (4) black children from poor families. I predict that average scores from group (1) would be higher than those from group (3) and average scores from group (2) would be higher than those from group (4). Can I take it you predict that (1) and (3) would be roughly the same (and ditto for (2) and (4))? > [@](#): > > So now for some questions: did you make up this theory of yours out of whole cloth, or did you read it somewhere? It’s based on my general knowledge and experience, which no doubt includes stuff I have read. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/24 "2009-02-21T20:28:07Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Well, you can listen to the people saying “black people are dumb and greedy and deserve what they get!” or you can listen to me. You’re the first person to mention the word “black” in this thread. At the point of your thread, no one had even said “African” so you can’t fall back on that either. Same goes for “dumb” “greed” or…hell, I’m going to at least assume you’ve read this thread so I don’t need to point all this crap out to you. But no one’s said any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/25 "2009-02-21T20:41:24Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Where are the poor living? A current big problem in Montreal is that the traditionally lower-class areas near downtown – the one I know best is the Sud-Ouest, where I lived for a number of years – have over the last decade seeing the advent of the condos that were described above. (The situation in Montreal is a little different because we’ve always had an extremely high downtown residential density, and even at the worst of the economic times in the 80s never really abandoned the central business district, which has lots of retail as well as three universities and so forth.) This was preceded by areas such as the Plateau (a case study for the urban bohemian thing – poor people -\> poor artists and students -\> people who want to live in a cool neighbourhood -\> people who are willing to buy expensive condos) and the Village, and areas such as Hochelaga-Maisonneuve are now following. I’m not going to deny that it has its benefits, but it has a lot of concomitant problems that are not being dealt with. The gentrification causes property values, and consequently property taxes and rents even in non-gentrified buildings, to increase. Also, prices for groceries and such go up. Finally, property owners who want to get in on the development use various legal and not-so-legal methods to force their tenants out so they can sell and/or redevelop their properties. As poor people leave the neighbourhood, the social ties and community organizations they crafted together are disrupted, making things difficult both for them and for those who remain. We’re now seeing people move really far from downtown to find decent rents – Laval, Pointe-aux-Trembles, etc. I’ve heard of people having to move as far away as Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, more than 30 km away. Further compounding the problem is the fact that they depend on big-city services such as public transit, social services, and so forth, making life all the more difficult once they move farther away from those services and/or to places where it’s more difficult to get around if you don’t own a car. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/26 "2009-02-21T21:19:32Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > You have certain one-industry towns and cities in the US, in the UK not quite so much - the one industry places tend to be towns rather than cities. We did, of course, have _had_ one-industry cities, which have suffered hardship as these have collapsed - the way Liverpool was wedded to the sea and Bradford to manufacturing, for example, can be compared to Detroit’s reliance on the motor industry. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/27 "2009-02-21T22:00:03Z")
Our towns are generally so close that commuting to find work in another city is often, and usually possible. Some UK towns have become dormitory towns for larger cities, especially in the South East, but also around Manchester and Birmingham. We do have some, such as Corby which was a relatively new town, historically speaking and it hadn’t developed any other industry except steel. In the US, if the main employer in a one industry town shuts, thats it, distances are too great. The UK cities tended to be overshadowed by Victorian development and along with that, lots of railways but US cities are often geared only for the motor car. We do have the freeport/out of town shopping that has led to the decline of central business districts, but the UK city dynamic is differant to the US. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/28 "2009-02-21T22:20:11Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > In the US, if the main employer in a one industry town shuts, thats it, distances are too great. The US has “hellhole ghettos” even in prosperous cities such as Los Angeles and New York. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/29 "2009-02-22T00:55:08Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Brilliant. > [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Hi panache45. > > Giving sarcastic responses when someone is ignorant of something, or unsure of something, even if it’s obvious, is counterproductive. The way that one learns is to ask and hostility from others is of no help in fighting ignorance. > > For example, you will often find in classes that people are afraid to ask questions for fear of looking stupid. This is detrimental to their education. You are right, but Panache’s comment made me chuckle. You walked right into that one. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/30 "2009-02-22T01:08:01Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > You’re the first person to mention the word “black” in this thread. At the point of your thread, no one had even said “African” so you can’t fall back on that either. > Same goes for “dumb” “greed” or…hell, I’m going to at least assume you’ve read this thread so I don’t need to point all this crap out to you. But no one’s said any such thing. The coded language and enuendo used by **brazil84** (who to me has a racist POV), I believe is what prompted **even sven** to just lay it out right on the table because face it, we all know what population is being talked about here. I think **even sven** ’s analysis is pretty much on point with respect to WWII, housing and subsequent transfer of wealth, real estate being the main vehicle for wealth transfer from one generation to the other. It is true that this is multi-factoral but it revolves primarily around institutionalized racism(which includes white flight, redlining, benign neglect, etc), the erosion of the US industrial base i.e. we make less things here now than we did 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/31 "2009-02-22T01:15:41Z")
> [@What\_the\_deuce](#): > > Why would people live in such a place? My guess is that they can’t afford to live anywhere else. > > Is there any possible solution to this problem? Folks trapped in “such places” usually have the least resources to enable their own success–obviously no personal capital, poor family structure, and most importantly, limited average intelligence. The brighter subgroup which manages to get out leaves behind a population with even lower average intelligence, and the cycle persists. Extending services concentrates this population even more; if I have no money, can’t succeed in school and need external resources, I’m not going to decide to strike out on my own and go live in rural Wyoming. You’ll find a lot of explanations around external things–racism; transportation; crime–on and on. Ultimately, however, the potential for average success is tied most closely to average intelligence, and in the populations left behind in our inner cities (and, for that matter, ghettos the world over), a lower average IQ is the largest single factor for persistence of limited success. Over the years many ghetto populations have risen to more equitable positions in society’s ranks with similar external pressures. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/32 "2009-02-22T01:20:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > In my opinion, it’s really a problem of the “underclass.” The “underclass” is basically a subset of the population which has a tendency to behave very irresponsibly/improvidently/self-destructively. > > Quite reasonably, people outside of the underclass do not want to live near the underclass, so “hellhole ghettos” as you call them develop. For a while most whites even if they were in the same “class” didn’t want to live near black people. That had nothing to do with class differences but more to do with racism. > [@](#): > > Logically, I can think a few possible causes for the problem of the underclass. First, that children born into the underclass tend to absorb the poor values of their parents (actually, their mother since their father probably is not around) and their community. Second, that children born into the underclass tend to have lower cognitive skills due to the **genes** they receive from their parents (as well as their upbringing. Third, that people outside the underclass discriminate against members of the underclass which helps to keep them down. So you’re talking eugenics here? It’s the genes huh? Wasn’t this debunked along with the whole “Master Race” theory? > [@](#): > > I would guess that all of these things play a role. Politically, the easiest ways to address the problem of the underclass is to devote resources to educating them and giving them opportunities. This has actually been tried to an extent in the United States and it hasn’t made that big of a dent in the problem. When and how was this tried? Manufacturing/low skilled jobs have been flowing out of the country for a while now. > [@](#): > > In my opinion, that’s because education/opportunities probably don’t go that far against the double whammy of (1) lousy parents; and (2) the genes (actually alleles) passed on by those parents. Politically, it’s difficult (and expensive) to take children away from their parents except in the most extreme cases. Also, that would not address the genetic problem. More eugenics bullshit here. > [@](#): > > In my opinion, the key is to find a politically acceptable way to raise the cognitive function of people in the underclass. My idea is to look for a drug or food supplement which will make people smarter. We already have drugs which make people stronger. I think you should be first in line for the cognitive drug. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/33 "2009-02-22T01:23:07Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > we all know what population is being talked about here. This of course is true. To a large extent, anyway. > [@](#): > > The coded language and enuendo used by brazil84 I’m not using any code words or innuendo. I’ve made no secret of my belief that America’s underclass is disproportionately black (and hispanic). > [@](#): > > who to me has a racist POV), Depends on how you define “racist,” of course. In my experience, the word “racist” obscures more than it enlightens. None of this changes the fact that **even sven** set up a big fat juicy strawman to knock down. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/34 "2009-02-22T01:23:38Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > You’re the first person to mention the word “black” in this thread. At the point of your thread, no one had even said “African” so you can’t fall back on that either. Yeah, I know. **brazil84** has a long history of talking about “certain populations”, “genetic cohorts”, etc. But I’m a fan of us all just saying what we are saying. If you are going to start talking about race, might as well be honest about it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/35 "2009-02-22T01:30:04Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > For a while most whites even if they were in the same “class” didn’t want to live near black people. I’m not sure I understand your point. Could you give me an example of this? > [@](#): > > So you’re talking eugenics here? No. > [@](#): > > It’s the genes huh? In part, yes. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t this debunked along with the whole “Master Race” theory? I’m not sure what you mean by “‘Master Race’ theory,” but as far as I know, the answer is “no.” > [@](#): > > When and how was this tried? For example, the Kansas City schools experiment. > [@](#): > > I think you should be first in line for the cognitive drug. And I think that when you debate by flinging insults, it shows you are having trouble responding on the merits. In any event, please stop. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/36 "2009-02-22T01:52:30Z")
> [@astro](#): > > soft racism of suburban settings What does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/37 "2009-02-22T02:07:07Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Yeah, I know. **brazil84** has a long history of talking about “certain populations”, “genetic cohorts”, etc. Lol. Please show me where I used the phrase “genetic cohort.” Anyway, the OP could have easily mentioned that “hellhole ghetto inner cores” typically have a racial component to them. But he or she chose not to do so. > [@](#): > > But I’m a fan of us all just saying what we are saying. If you are going to start talking about race, might as well be honest about it. I agree, but again note that the OP made no mention of race. And none of this changes the fact that you set up a big juicy strawman to attack. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/38 "2009-02-22T02:44:01Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > So you’re talking eugenics here? It’s the genes huh? Wasn’t this debunked along with the whole “Master Race” theory? This attitude annoys me. Just because certain racist eugenic theories of the early twentieth century were debunked doesn’t mean that _any_ explanation involving genetics is necessarily false and racist. Do you deny that genes influence human behavior? Assuming you don’t, why do you think that intelligence is not at least partially influenced by genes? Note that I’m not saying it wholly influences behavior, and things like ignorance (as opposed to stupidity) and a natural desire to live in one’s home environment play a large part as well. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/39 "2009-02-22T03:26:56Z")
Point me to some recent research the attributes the genes to one “race” over the other that hasn’t been thorougly debunked. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813/40 "2009-02-22T03:35:19Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Point me to some recent research the attributes the genes to one “race” over the other that hasn’t been thorougly debunked. I didn’t say that, and **brazil84** didn’t either (although I don’t know what the man actually thinks). I said that genes for low intelligence (or behaviors that are not likely to achieve success in today’s world) are probably more likely to be prevalent in poor, inner city communities, regardless of skin color. I don’t have any studies (and I’m not sure that there could be any, given that practical intelligence is so multifaceted and hard to measure), but I’m just saying that the idea can’t be dismissed out of hand as racist, when it has nothing to do with race besides words that you are putting into his mouth. Valete, Vox Imperatoris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-cities-often-have-hellhole-ghetto-inner-cores-any-solution/486813.md?page=3)