# Why do doctors over prescribe drugs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575 "2012-03-23T03:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/161 "2012-03-30T17:24:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, this post would seem to indicate that you did not actually read the link. > > If one goes back and examines that actual text of the link, one will note that the only anti-depressants that were examined were SSRIs. The abstract does not place the term “SSRI” in front of every occurrence of “anti-depressant” because all the references to the purpose of the study make it clear that only the SSRIs were even looked at in the study and that the purpose of the study was to examine four new drugs in the SSRI spectrum. > Nothing in the abstract, (and certainly nothing in the actual study), even addresses the issue of other, older anti-depressants other than to mention that they exist and were not part of the study. That is a fairly significant thing to miss when trying to point to an abstract to support one’s position. I only mentioned one study that was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there are actually dozens on this point. Instead of listing perhaps a reference to this Newsweek article might and you could try check the books and papers mentioned in the article. [http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html](http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html) Or this book: **The Emperor’s New Drugs: Exploding the Antidepressant Myth by Irving Kirsch** Since Hentor the Barbarian claims to know Dr Kirsch, maybe he would like to comment on the book? I assume he has already read it. In any case, none of this relevant to my original query asking if there was actual research that indicates that depression can actually cured by antidepressants at the biochemical level or do antidepressants treat the symptoms? I wasn’t even asking if antidepressants work at all. Hentor was the one that started talking placebos. I just didn’t want to deal with anecdotes, because of documented placebo effects. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/162 "2012-03-30T17:59:56Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This little bit that you do is not only tired, but it amplifies how apparent your rank ignorance is. Not only am I familiar with that work, my clinical training was under Irving Kirsch. I know what his work says and doesn’t say. > > You don’t. So you are saying that your question about placebos was entirely rhetorical? This is the “Great Debates”, so you can do that. Do you actually want to answer my original question or continue to attack me for asking it? A refresher: > [@](#): > > Is there any biological evidence that Antidepressants can ‘cure’ depression. To me it sounds a lot like claiming that insulin can ‘cure’ diabetes. I don’t mean anecdotes. I mean actual measurements of brain chemistry. I thought antidepressant were for treating depression. Clarification: Cure means a permanent fix. Treatment means that it alleviates the symptoms, but you have to continue taking the treatment. My mother had to take insulin and it worked, but she was on it until she died. A cure is like setting a broken bone. You set the bone, put a cast on it, the bone heals and you the take cast off. BTW, I took logic in college and your reference to Dr Kircher is what is called the appeal to authority fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/163 "2012-03-30T20:09:11Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > What is the problem that people have with anti-depressants? I finally ‘came out’ to my family about being on them and they were quite concerned. > > You know what? I am better now. Good enough that I can actually go to therapy to deal with underlying causes so I can eventually be this normal without the meds. > > Without them, life had no joy. Nothing was enjoyable. All I wanted to do was sleep. I didn’t want to be around people. I cried a lot. > > But now that I am not in the full grips of my depression, I realize that my life is really good and lots of things are fun. I have remembered how to laugh. I have a full range of emotions again. > > I know others have said it before but depression is not being sad. It is not having a negative experience and reacting to it. It is not being able to function. At all. Often for no reason at all. > > Yeah, the drugs are a crutch but would you deny a person with a sprained ankle a crutch until they could start healing? They are just another tool. Would you allow a crutch on the market if using it caused some people to experience more broken bones. Or a cancer drug that caused more cancer? Yet antidepressants can cause “increased thoughts of suicide.” A spin on “making you more suicidal.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/164 "2012-03-30T20:17:16Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Or a cancer drug that caused more cancer? Like radiation therapy, which has been a staple of cancer treatment for generations? If people have severe problems and face crappy odds of surviving, many of them will take a drug that could hurt them if it also might help them. They should do so in an informed way and drugs shouldn’t be on the market if the harm far outweighs the good they can do, but “it has side effects!” doesn’t make it bad. Everything has side effects. What if a drug for depressions helps 20 or 50 or 100 or 500 people for every one who has suicidal thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/165 "2012-03-30T20:32:23Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Would you allow a crutch on the market if using it caused some people to experience more broken bones. Or a cancer drug that caused more cancer? > > Yet antidepressants can cause “increased thoughts of suicide.” A spin on “making you more suicidal.” You do realize that most people do not commit suicide when they are at the bottom, it is when they are climbing out of depression that they are at the highest at risk. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/166 "2012-03-30T21:31:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You do realize that most people do not commit suicide when they are at the bottom, it is when they are climbing out of depression that they are at the highest at risk. I would be interested in seeing a cite for that. Based on suicide statistics, I haven’t seen any evidence antidepressants have any effect on the suicide rate up or down and the idea that feeling better makes you more suicidal seem counter intuitive. Of course, “increased thoughts of suicide.” are one of those anecdotal things, that I’ve already expressed my opinion about. At least losing or gaining weight can actually be measured, even if we can’t prove the medication caused it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/167 "2012-03-30T21:50:02Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I would be interested in seeing a cite for that. Based on suicide statistics, I haven’t seen any evidence antidepressants have any effect on the suicide rate up or down and the idea that feeling better makes you more suicidal seem counter intuitive. > > Of course, “increased thoughts of suicide.” are one of those anecdotal things, that I’ve already expressed my opinion about. At least losing or gaining weight can actually be measured, even if we can’t prove the medication caused it. I am looking for a free source, it has been well known for a while so the studies are mostly on dead trees. I will be back with it shortly but I had to share this one which debunks your previous claim. [ > [@](#): > > Data Synthesis Patients in all age and drug groups had significantly greater improvement relative to control patients receiving placebo. The differential rate of improvement was largest for adults receiving fluoxetine (34.6% greater than those receiving placebo). Youths had the largest treated vs control difference in response rates (24.1%) and remission rates (30.1%), with adult differences generally in the 15.6% (remission) to 21.4% (response) range. Geriatric patients had the smallest drug-placebo differences, an 18.5% greater rate of improvement, 9.9% for response and 6.5% for remission. Immediate-release venlafaxine produced larger effects than extended-release venlafaxine. Baseline severity could not be shown to affect symptom reduction. > > Conclusions To our knowledge, this is the first research synthesis in this area to use complete longitudinal person-level data from a large set of published and unpublished studies. The results do not support previous findings that antidepressants show little benefit except for severe depression. The antidepressants fluoxetine and venlafaxine are efficacious for major depressive disorder in all age groups, although more so in youths and adults compared with geriatric patients. Baseline severity was not significantly related to degree of treatment advantage over placebo. ]([http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2011.2044](http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2011.2044)) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/168 "2012-03-30T22:06:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am looking for a free source, it has been well known for a while so the studies are mostly on dead trees. > > I will be back with it shortly but I had to share this one which debunks your previous claim. I was mistaken, that study related to bipolar disorder, however. > [@](#): > > the study failed to show any difference between different types of antidepressant medication and subsequent suicides. It did show, however, that suicide risk was highest in the early days of beginning to take any antidepressant, the authors felt that this was likely to be because people seeking help do so at the worst stages of their depression, and antidepressants are not immediately effective, so there is a higher risk in people who have been newly diagnosed and treated, compared with those who have been treated for some time. Jick, H, Kaye, J A, and Jick, S S, (2004), ‘Antidepressants and the Risk of Suicidal Behaviours’, Journal of the American Medical Association, 292, (3), 338 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/169 "2012-03-30T22:21:29Z")
Here is a newer one that shows a correlation between prescription rates and a reduction in suicide rates. [ > [@](#): > > We think the most important consideration is to acknowledge what is in front of us. If antidepressants increase the risk of suicide, the more than fivefold increase in their use since 1990 should have led to a suicide catastrophe (cf. thalidomide). However, no such catastrophe has occurred. Instead, we have witnessed a substantial worldwide decrease in suicide. ]([The increased use of antidepressants has contributed to the worldwide reduction in suicide rates | The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core](http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/196/6/429.full)) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/170 "2012-03-30T23:17:02Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > …the idea that feeling better makes you more suicidal seem counter intuitive. At the worst point in my (Clinical) depression, the idea of suicide was exhausting. The idea of breathing was exhausting. I was literally too exhausted to commit suicide. Getting pills, finding a knife, buying a gun…meh. Too much work. I’d probably just screw it up anyway. It’s not that I wanted to live, I was just too depressed to make myself die. The riskiest stage for me was when the meds had begun to kick in, so I was not so utterly exhausted, but they were not fully effective, so my outlook on living was still grim. Luckily, I had good people keeping a close watch on me. And I was essentially “cured”. 6 months of Prozac 15 years ago. Done. Have I gotten depressed since then? Sure, of course, in the colloquial “got the blues” sense. But I’ve not been Depressed again since then. (I’ve had a little harder time with my Anxiety Disorder - not been medicated since then, but there have been a few times I probably should have been. Right now is one of them, actually. I’m trying to ride it out, but if it doesn’t ease soon, I’ll go see a doctor.) I’m not sure where you got this idea that people are on meds for Depression forever. Most aren’t. Some may need to be, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but plenty of us are on them for a discrete period of time and then we’re better. More people have been cured of Depression by drugs than have been cured of Diabetes by insulin, that’s for sure! ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/171 "2012-03-31T04:02:10Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am looking for a free source, it has been well known for a while so the studies are mostly on dead trees. > > I will be back with it shortly but I had to share this one which debunks your previous claim. > [URL=“[http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2011.2044](http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/archgenpsychiatry.2011.2044)”] > > > [@](#): > > > > Data Synthesis Patients in all age and drug groups had significantly greater improvement relative to control patients receiving placebo. The differential rate of improvement was largest for adults receiving fluoxetine (34.6% greater than those receiving placebo). Youths had the largest treated vs control difference in response rates (24.1%) and remission rates (30.1%), with adult differences generally in the 15.6% (remission) to 21.4% (response) range. Geriatric patients had the smallest drug-placebo differences, an 18.5% greater rate of improvement, 9.9% for response and 6.5% for remission. Immediate-release venlafaxine produced larger effects than extended-release venlafaxine. Baseline severity could not be shown to affect symptom reduction. > > > > Conclusions To our knowledge, this is the first research synthesis in this area to use complete longitudinal person-level data from a large set of published and unpublished studies.\*\* The results do not support previous findings that antidepressants show little benefit except for severe depression\*\*. The antidepressants fluoxetine and venlafaxine are efficacious for major depressive disorder in all age groups, although more so in youths and adults compared with geriatric patients. Baseline severity was not significantly related to degree of treatment advantage over placebo. I’m at a bit of a disadvantage since this paper is behind a paywall and I’ve learned the hard way it is isn’t prudent to base anything on the summary of a paper. You often find caveats that weaken the conclusion or demolish it. In this case, I can’t even look over their math. As they point out themselves, this studies disagrees with previous studies, which is odd, since all they are doing reanalyzing previous studies and are coming to the opposite conclusion. It might cause one to wonder if the reasons Dr Gibbons came to the opposite conclusions is that he only used the first 6 weeks and excluded all the long term data. This tends to reduce their results to the level of faster than light neutrinos until their results are independently confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/172 "2012-03-31T04:49:46Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I only mentioned one study that was mentioned earlier in the thread, . . . Well, what you actually did was claim that another poster had failed to read a link that actually failed to support your claims. Now, there may actually be other studies that support your contntions, but I see no particular reason to wander through an Op Ed piece of many pages that does not ever seem to actually provide citations for the claims that it makes about various studies. If you have actual citations that anti-depressants don’t work, that is fine, but you might want to refrain from accusing others of not reading text when reading the text demonstrates that you have not. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/173 "2012-03-31T04:52:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I was mistaken, that study related to bipolar disorder, however. > Jick, H, Kaye, J A, and Jick, S S, (2004), ‘Antidepressants and the Risk of Suicidal Behaviours’, Journal of the American Medical Association, 292, (3), 338 Holy crap. Why are Antidepressants legal? I downloaded this study and glanced at it. I saw 8.5 and said that doesn’t sound that bad, but then I saw the per **10,000**. They are reporting a suicide rate of 85 per 100,000. The suicide rate for the general population is around 11 per 100,000. I kept checking the math figuring I must be misreading it . Antidepressants increase the chances of suicide by a factor of 7. I figured 10% or 20%, not 700% [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2548617/pdf/bmj00577-0017.pdf](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2548617/pdf/bmj00577-0017.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/174 "2012-03-31T05:01:39Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > > > I am looking for a free source, it has been well known for a while so the studies are mostly on dead trees. > > > > I will be back with it shortly but I had to share this one which debunks your previous claim. > > I’m at a bit of a disadvantage since this paper is behind a paywall and I’ve learned the hard way it is isn’t prudent to base anything on the summary of a paper. You often find caveats that weaken the conclusion or demolish it. In this case, I can’t even look over their math. As they point out themselves, this studies disagrees with previous studies, which is odd, since all they are doing reanalyzing previous studies and are coming to the opposite conclusion. It might cause one to wonder if the reasons Dr Gibbons came to the opposite conclusions is that he only used the first 6 weeks and excluded all the long term data. This tends to reduce their results to the level of faster than light neutrinos until their results are independently confirmed. Yes it is a pity we didn’t have this discussion a few weeks earlier when it was free, I have the full study but didn’t want to use any information you don’t have access too, it doesn’t make for a very good debate. Your linked meta analysis was also based on 6 week trials, that is a function of the FDA and not of either of the study. The big difference is that your linked study by Kirsch was using the various study results, he had no access to the patient level data. The text for JAMA is free after 6 months after publication I think but that is…well 6 months from now. I am not finding any non-meta studies claiming that those drugs function the same as placebo I would appreciate any links you have. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/175 "2012-03-31T05:02:47Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Holy crap. Why are Antidepressants legal? Is that is really what you draw from the material? Did you know that hospitals that include hospice care have a rate of morbidity several times higher than hospitals that do not? We really need to shut down those hospitals that that provide hospice care; they are a menace. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/176 "2012-03-31T05:14:51Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Holy crap. Why are Antidepressants legal? I downloaded this study and glanced at it. I saw 8.5 and said that doesn’t sound that bad, but then I saw the per **10,000**. They are reporting a suicide rate of 85 per 100,000. The suicide rate for the general population is around 11 per 100,000. I kept checking the math figuring I must be misreading it . Antidepressants increase the chances of suicide by a factor of 7. I figured 10% or 20%, not 700% > > [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2548617/pdf/bmj00577-0017.pdf](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2548617/pdf/bmj00577-0017.pdf) The real question is why are people allowed to be suicidal, the relative risk for people who had a history of being suicidal was 19-2!! ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/177 "2012-03-31T05:32:40Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You didn’t look at the link dataguy posted in #127: > > [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253608/?tool=pubmed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253608/?tool=pubmed) > > For most people anti-depressants are no more effective than placebos. > > This makes perfect sense when most diagnoses look at symptoms, not by assessing the brain chemistry. If the chemical symptoms aren’t there, then antidepressants can only help as a placebo. > > I was already familiar with the study from the last thread on antidepressants. I’m frankly skeptical of antidepressants, since they were introduced in the late eighties, there hasn’t been any improvements by objective measures like the suicide rate. So to revisit this study seeing as the math was questioned in the one I provided. All of the drugs show improvement over placebo and the confidence intervals aren’t going crossing zero. I may be wrong here but it seems that really all this does is show that the drugs aren’t as effective as he wishes, every single one of them out preformed placebo. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/178 "2012-03-31T05:34:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, what you actually did was claim that another poster had failed to read a link that actually failed to support your claims. > > Now, there may actually be other studies that support your contntions, but I see no particular reason to wander through an Op Ed piece of many pages that does not ever seem to actually provide citations for the claims that it makes about various studies. > > If you have actual citations that anti-depressants don’t work, that is fine, but you might want to refrain from accusing others of not reading text when reading the text demonstrates that you have not. Please go back to post 146 and read the part where Hentor said I was lying about other posters saying that they were permanently cured after taking antidepressants. Quote: Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch > [@](#): > > if you followed the thread there have been multiple claims that their depression was cured after taking after antidepressants for awhile. That is why I excluded anecdotal information. There is nothing wrong with a treatment that works, but people reporting that their depression was ‘cured’ after taking antidepressants sounds like BS to me. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > **You know, this is three times, I believe, in two days that you’ve pulled this kind of response. If you’d followed the thread… if you’d ever had your hair cut short…** > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You made a simply, clearly, demonstratively false statement. Nobody in this thread described their depression as being cured by medication. I just did a search on every use of the word “cure” in this thread, and it has not happened here. > > So, it may sound like BS to you, but it doesn’t matter, because that sound is only coming from inside your head. > > Again, is something undesirable if it is a treatment, but not a cure? Just by chance, my son had his quarterly visit to the diabetes clinic today. Is there something wrong with his being treated with insulin, in your astute opinion? It’s not “curing” his diabetes, so should he stop? I then posted a reference to post 96: > [@](#): > > I took Paxil for anxiety and depression. Without Paxil I would not have been a functional adult. Paxil allowed me to get rid of the major symptoms so I could attend therapy and make some progress towards dealing with the underlying causes of the disease and go off the medication successfully. It is obvious from the hair comment that Hentor is carrying over an argument from the Zimmerman thread over to this thread. If that is permitted by forum rules then I apologize, but it doesn’t seem fair to other posters. In any case Hentor already posted that he had actually misunderstood my comments about insulin. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/179 "2012-03-31T05:58:20Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I only mentioned one study that was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there are actually dozens on this point. Instead of listing perhaps a reference to this Newsweek article might and you could try check the books and papers mentioned in the article. Actually, I would strongly recommend that you do so. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since Hentor the Barbarian claims to know Dr Kirsch, maybe he would like to comment on the book? I assume he has already read it. I do know Dr. Kirsch. I studied under him at the University of Connecticut. He was very influential in my training. I have no idea what you would like me to say about the book. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > In any case, none of this relevant to my original query asking if there was actual research that indicates that depression can actually cured by antidepressants at the biochemical level or do antidepressants treat the symptoms? I wasn’t even asking if antidepressants work at all. Hentor was the one that started talking placebos. I just didn’t want to deal with anecdotes, because of documented placebo effects. This is full of completely false statements. First, you didn’t ask that, you stated that antidepressants don’t “cure” depression, and insulin doesn’t “cure” diabetes. You also stated that others had made claims in this thread that antidepressants do “cure” depression. You have not supported your claim about what others have said. You have not clarified your implications that something that works as a successful treatment is somehow undesirable. Finally, I did not start talking about placebos. The first time I mentioned placebos is in my response to you, where I quoted your statement about placebos. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > So you are saying that your question about placebos was entirely rhetorical? This is the “Great Debates”, so you can do that. Do you actually want to answer my original question or continue to attack me for asking it? I didn’t ask any question about placebos. You did. I’m not attacking you. I’m asking you to clarify your statements, and I am requesting that you stop making false claims about what I’ve said, and about whether I have read or have not read material here. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > A refresher: Wow, you have an annoyingly overblown and wholly unearned pedagogic tone. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > > > Is there any biological evidence that Antidepressants can ‘cure’ depression. To me it sounds a lot like claiming that insulin can ‘cure’ diabetes. I don’t mean anecdotes. I mean actual measurements of brain chemistry. I thought antidepressant were for treating depression. > > Clarification: Cure means a permanent fix. Treatment means that it alleviates the symptoms, but you have to continue taking the treatment. My mother had to take insulin and it worked, but she was on it until she died. A cure is like setting a broken bone. You set the bone, put a cast on it, the bone heals and you the take cast off. And my original response holds. If a treatment reduces depression, then it is an acceptable treatment. If it does so better than placebo, it is presumed to have an active medicinal quality. If it doesn’t permanently end depression, it is no less a valid treatment, just as taking insulin is no less a valid treatment for diabetes. > [@](#): > > BTW, I took logic in college and your reference to Dr Kircher is what is called the appeal to authority fallacy. It’s Dr. Kirsch, and if I had made claims about placebos versus antidepressants based on my knowing Dr. Kirsch, you would have a point. But I did not. I was responding to your assertion that I did not read the linked article. You would do well to keep track of your claims in order to avoid repeatedly misstating and misrepresenting your role in these discussions. It is quite frustrating. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Holy crap. Why are Antidepressants legal? I downloaded this study and glanced at it. I saw 8.5 and said that doesn’t sound that bad, but then I saw the per 10,000. They are reporting a suicide rate of 85 per 100,000. The suicide rate for the general population is around 11 per 100,000. I kept checking the math figuring I must be misreading it . Antidepressants increase the chances of suicide by a factor of 7. I figured 10% or 20%, not 700% Now, this is just outright silly. Maybe you should do more than just glance at it. There’s no rate in that article of 8.5 in the Jick et al. paper. I have no idea where you got those numbers. A search of the entire article reveals that the figure “8.5” only appears as the percentage of the control group who were between the ages of 50-59. So, in a nutshell, what the hell are you talking about? The study itself is a study of the rate of suicidal behaviors over durations of time after starting medications among people receiving three types of medication in contrast to people receiving dothiepin. It doesn’t even include data that would allow for the conclusion you want to draw. Furthermore, let’s pretend for a second that you didn’t just make up these figures wholecloth. Why would you compare the rate of suicide in a group of people receiving antidepressants to the rate of suicide in the general population? People receive antidepressants to treat depression. People with depression **are more likely than people in the general population to commit suicide**. It would be exceedingly foolish to compare the rate of suicide among people being treated for depression with the rate of suicide in the general population and come to the conclusion that treatment causes suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575/180 "2012-03-31T06:07:16Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Please go back to post 146 and read the part where Hentor said I was lying about other posters saying that they were permanently cured after taking antidepressants. And you still have not shown that anyone said they were cured by taking antidepressants. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I then posted a reference to post 96: Which describes being successfully treated using Paxil, but says nothing about being cured. This is the distinction you dragged into the thread, and your example goes against the assertion you were making. AGAIN: Did anyone here claim to be cured by taking an antidepressant or not? > [@](#): > > It is obvious from the hair comment that Hentor is carrying over an argument from the Zimmerman thread over to this thread. If that is permitted by forum rules then I apologize, but it doesn’t seem fair to other posters. I’m commenting on your frustrating tactic of making suggestions about others for which you have no knowledge or basis in fact. You have no idea if I’ve read a linked article. You have no idea if I’ve had my hair cut short. This is just a silly thing to do, over and over again, and in this case it was not only wrong, because not only have I read the work, it was foolish because I was intimately familiar with the line of theory and research that preceded it. I’m also familiar with the body of research surrounding that line of inquiry, and the evidence that moderates the implications of Dr. Kirsch’s work. > [@](#): > > In any case Hentor already posted that he had actually misunderstood my comments about insulin. Nope. You stated that insulin does not “cure” diabetes. I’ve asked you multiple times to explain “so what”? Why does it matter that insulin does not cure diabetes? It’s certainly a very successful treatment; it keeps blood sugar levels within normal range and dramatically reduces the incidence of very undesirable outcomes. So, explain why it matters that insulin doesn’t cure diabetes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-doctors-over-prescribe-drugs/616575.md?page=10)