# why do expat americans never go 'back home'? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 29, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921 "2013-09-29T14:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/101 "2013-10-04T17:48:15Z")
So far (as far as I can tell) not a single person has shown whether the percentage of American ex-pats who never return is more or less than the percentage of the ex-pats of any other country who don’t return. Does anyone have such figures? Why continue to discuss why American ex-pats don’t return when it’s not clear that they don’t (at least more than other countries’ expats)? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/102 "2013-10-04T18:14:31Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Socialized healthcare. > Less politically polarized > Gun control > More room > Beautiful > > Why leave Canada to go to back to the US? I’ve described before on this message board that my family and I were ex-pats in Montreal, and we did move back to the U.S. after living in Canada for five years. So there are reasons. ---
**Author:** ![sentrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@sentrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sentrix)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/103 "2013-10-04T18:21:51Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’ll answer no more of your questions until you learn proper capitalization. what a loss i’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/104 "2013-10-04T18:42:37Z")
**Sentrix** , Since you’re new here I let you know. You’re going to catch a lot of snark on grammar and capitalization. A lot of the internet is lax about these things but around here it’s considered a sign of respect and good manners. If you want to be taken seriously it’s a good habit to pick up. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/105 "2013-10-04T18:49:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But aren’t first-generation immigrants to America also called that? Not if they assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/106 "2013-10-04T19:09:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But aren’t first-generation immigrants to America also called that? As others have said. It’s different. In college, I had a bunch of Chinese grad students who didn’t speak English well and they were called foreigners. Very different from how other foreign-born individuals who were more well assimilated where treated. > [@CairoCarol](#): > > (For those unfamiliar with the issue, Gleena is correct. However, the situation is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the first $90k or so is exempt from taxes. After that, however, you pay tax at the same marginal rate you would if the first 90k were taxed.) For people not aware, filing US taxes as a US citizen living overseas is a pain-in-the-ass, as you have several additional forms which need to be filed, as well as do all the currency conversions, etc. I had previously used a tax filer, but I built an excel spreadsheet 10 years ago, and it’s pretty quick. After the exemption, while you pay a lower rate on additional amount, because of the complex method of deductions allowed or not, especially with the alternative minimum tax (ALT), the effective rate is higher than what a person in the States would pay. For example, if you have an income of $160,000 then you get the $90k deduction so your net taxable income is $70,000. However, because of the ALT, you can pay a higher effective tax rate than a US-based taxpayer with a $70k income. Fortunately not only is your first $90k exempted, there also is a tax credit for foreign taxes paid on your income. With this credit, then people living in countries with tax rates comparable to the US often don’t have to pay any US taxes, but I guess that this would be a problem in places such as Hong Kong which have lower tax rates. > [@astorian](#): > > Large scale Third World immigration, on the other hand, may yet happen. It’s already starting to, as Japan’s population gets older and shrinks. They may NEED Filippinos to work at the nursing homes and to take the factory jobs that were supposed to be filled by the kids the Japanese never had. > > Interestingly, we’re seeing an African presence in China, today. Will black Africans and their kids ever be accepted as “real” Chinese? I guess we’ll find out. I disagree that the few Filippinos and Indonesians allowed into Japan constitute the start of large scale Third World immigration. I don’t really see Japanese or Chinese accepting people from other races as “real” anywhere in the short term (like the next 30 years). > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > So far (as far as I can tell) not a single person has shown whether the percentage of American ex-pats who never return is more or less than the percentage of the ex-pats of any other country who don’t return. Does anyone have such figures? Why continue to discuss why American ex-pats don’t return when it’s not clear that they don’t (at least more than other countries’ expats)? Like any other good thread, we’re all over the place by page three. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/107 "2013-10-04T19:11:44Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > **Sentrix** , Since you’re new here I let you know. You’re going to catch a lot of snark on grammar and capitalization. A lot of the internet is lax about these things but around here it’s considered a sign of respect and good manners. If you want to be taken seriously it’s a good habit to pick up. It’s intentional, and sentrix wants to piss off people. There are a number of threads where this has been discussed including a thread in the Pit started by him/her. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/108 "2013-10-05T01:01:36Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > **Sentrix** , Since you’re new here I let you know. You’re going to catch a lot of snark on grammar and capitalization. A lot of the internet is lax about these things but around here it’s considered a sign of respect and good manners. If you want to be taken seriously it’s a good habit to pick up. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It’s intentional, and sentrix wants to piss off people. There are a number of threads where this has been discussed including a thread in the Pit started by him/her. Yes. And he – yes, he – has already been given at least one note for jerkish behavior. Seems to have washed off his back like water off a duck. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/109 "2013-10-05T01:25:36Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Your bolded statement is not _necessarily_ correct, depending on your circumstances. Whether you are in the US or abroad, you do not have to file a US tax return if certain conditions are met. These can be found on p. 3 of IRS Publication 54 - middle column under the heading “Filing Requirements”. [http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf) > > I point this out only because I myself was under the (I think commonly held) misapprehension that all US citizens living abroad have to file a tax return, no matter what. I was surprised to find out I was wrong! Thanks. According to this I still have to file. Also still not doing it! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/110 "2013-10-05T01:38:04Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > Thanks. According to this I still have to file. Also still not doing it! I wouldn’t worry too much about it. You probably could get into trouble if you went back and the IRS somehow flagged you. But I know quite a few American expats who also blew it off since they didn’t have to pay anyway, and they’ve remained unscathed. One was [Harry Rolnick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Rolnick). He lived here for years, then in Hong Kong. He used to have a column called “Letter from Bangkok” that came out once a fortnight, IIRC. Then of course, the name changed to “Letter from Hong Kong.” After something like 20 or 30 years abroad, it changed to “Letter from New York,” as he finally returned to his hometown. He said he had blown off filing during all his time away but started getting antsy when he returned that it might catch up with him. So he got all his records together and with the help of an accountant backfiled for the entire time period. Then he waited, and waited, and waited. Didn’t hear anything. Nervous, he called the IRS and asked if his case was being reviewed. The lady he was speaking with put him on hold, and when she came back, to his relief she said, in a slightly annoyed tone: “You don’t owe anything. Why are you calling?” ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/111 "2013-10-05T07:31:55Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > Thanks. According to this I still have to file. Also still not doing it! I never knew I had to file for IRS in the States either - and when I finally came back after my 14 years in Berlin, I found out then. I just went straight to the IRS and pleaded stupidity. They took some information, got my address(es) in Berlin, determined I never earned enough over there for this really to be an issue and they would contact me if they had any other questions. Years later, for an entirely unrelated reason, I requested and received a statement from the IRS stating that I did not owe any back taxes - so I guess my stupidity was absolved and removed from my files and it has never been an issue since. Just sayin’ - if you just fess up and didn’t earn some wild amount of money while living abroad, my guess is they are used to idiots (like myself) who were not aware of the fact that you even had to file. ---
**Author:** ![Mrmanface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mrmanface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrmanface)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/112 "2013-10-05T08:12:04Z")
lmao you have to pay US taxes when you work abroad ? bwhahahaha ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/113 "2013-10-05T10:35:55Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I think the US is categorically different in this area since we didn’t have a base ethnicity to start with. Initially we were colonized by English, French, Spanish, Portuguese etc. Obviously I’m not including Native Americans, for obvious reasons in this discussion. > > In Egypt there are Ethnic Egyptians and then Egyptians by citizenship or birth that are ethnically different. Of course they should be treated as fully fledged members of their country, but one can see why the POV might be different than in a country where everybody is originally from somewhere else. > > How “your people” get here is an important part of everyone’s story in the US. It’s why we have the DAR or track who came on the Mayflower. It’s why the effects of slavery still have such a hold- how would you feel if your immigrant story was that your people were dragged here in chains. Everyone knows which relative of theirs came to the US- was it mom, grandma, great-grandpa, great-aunt so-and-so etc. People know their immigration story. It’s why Ellis Island has such a romantic hold on so many people. > > As a result we look at immigration and immigrants a bit different. I think it’s one of the reasons illegal immigration pisses so many people off. Their “people” did it “right”. (not my personal opinion, but an observation). > > My parents were refugees throughout Europe after WWII and finally settled in Israel for three years (1948-51) before coming to the US. Here they feel they could become Americans. I suppose I have a unique perspective on these matters - I live in an immigrant country, the child of immigrants from \*another \*immigrant country. My great-grandparents immigrated to the U.S. from that amorphous Polish/Ukrainian/Lithuanian Eastern European mass at the turn of the 20th Century, and 60-something years later, my (very American) parents immigrated to Israel, where they promptly assimilated and began thinking of themselves as Israelis. The thought of moving to a country permanently while still being a foreigner is very strange to me. In Israel, you have Moroccan Jews, Russian Jews, Yemenite Jews, and American Jews. I have no problem seeing Americans as just another immigrant group. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/114 "2013-10-05T12:15:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suppose I have a unique perspective on these matters - I live in an immigrant country, the child of immigrants from \*another \*immigrant country. My great-grandparents immigrated to the U.S. from that amorphous Polish/Ukrainian/Lithuanian Eastern European mass at the turn of the 20th Century, and 60-something years later, my (very American) parents immigrated to Israel, where they promptly assimilated and began thinking of themselves as Israelis. The thought of moving to a country permanently while still being a foreigner is very strange to me. > > In Israel, you have Moroccan Jews, Russian Jews, Yemenite Jews, and American Jews. I have no problem seeing Americans as just another immigrant group. I think our perspectives are similar. I’m the child of immigrants in an immigrant country as well. We’re highly assimilated as well (but in the minority for religion). However, and this where this all started, my parents were never called “foreigners” but immigrants, with that distinction in mind. That’s where this conversation started… But has traveled far and wide, like our parents. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/115 "2013-10-05T14:26:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suppose I have a unique perspective on these matters - I live in an immigrant country, the child of immigrants from \*another \*immigrant country. My great-grandparents immigrated to the U.S. from that amorphous Polish/Ukrainian/Lithuanian Eastern European mass at the turn of the 20th Century, and 60-something years later, my (very American) parents immigrated to Israel, where they promptly assimilated and began thinking of themselves as Israelis. The thought of moving to a country permanently while still being a foreigner is very strange to me. > > In Israel, you have Moroccan Jews, Russian Jews, Yemenite Jews, and American Jews. I have no problem seeing Americans as just another immigrant group. And you cannot see the difference between American Jews intentionally emigrating to Israel and other Americans temporarily moving to other countries and then wind up staying longer? :dubious: Of course you would expect American and other Jews immigrating to Israel to assimilate. That’s the entire purpose of them moving there. It would be rather stupid of them to _not_ assimilate, wouldn’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/116 "2013-10-05T14:47:24Z")
> [@Mrmanface](#): > > lmao you have to pay US taxes when you work abroad ? bwhahahaha If you live permanently abroad, you have to pay income taxes only if 1) you earn more than about $90,000/year in taxable income; or 2) are paid directly by the US Federal Government. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/117 "2013-10-05T17:14:29Z")
> [@Mrmanface](#): > > lmao you have to pay US taxes when you work abroad ? bwhahahaha We are not the only country with some odd laws about their citizens living abroad. I was just speaking with friends from New Zealand who are nearing retirement age - and I asked if they had given any thought to moving back to Germany (family is still there). I was told that if you are getting retirement in New Zealand, and leave the country for more than 6 months at a time, they will stop issuing your retirement checks! I guess that is one way to ensure your retirees stay in NZ. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/118 "2013-10-05T18:17:31Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If you live permanently abroad, you have to pay income taxes only if 1) you earn more than about $90,000/year in taxable income; or 2) are paid directly by the US Federal Government. If you live permanently abroad…you may not have to _pay_ any income tax, but you still are required by American law to _file_ income tax forms. A 1040 form. And a TDF90 form. And a 2550 Form. Every year of your life. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/119 "2013-10-06T00:31:45Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > I never knew I had to file for IRS in the States either - and when I finally came back after my 14 years in Berlin, I found out then. > > I just went straight to the IRS and pleaded stupidity. > > They took some information, got my address(es) in Berlin, determined I never earned enough over there for this really to be an issue and they would contact me if they had any other questions. > > Years later, for an entirely unrelated reason, I requested and received a statement from the IRS stating that I did not owe any back taxes - so I guess my stupidity was absolved and removed from my files and it has never been an issue since. > > Just sayin’ - if you just fess up and didn’t earn some wild amount of money while living abroad, my guess is they are used to idiots (like myself) who were not aware of the fact that you even had to file. In the utterly unlikely event I ever move back, yeah, I’ll fess up then. But honestly, I cannot for any reason see myself going back for more than a week or two at a time at any point, and probably never again when my family is dead. I see no reason Uncle Sam should have a view to what I make when I don’t use any services. Nevermind reporting my bank account! We are far more likely at this stage in our careers to end up in India, Singapore, China or Hong Kong temporarily before coming back to Australia. I simply wouldn’t go to the US if it was offered to me, I don’t want to go back and worry about health care or my son piling up huge debt just to go to university, or having an asthma attack that leads him to bankruptcy. I don’t want to be worried that my boss can fire me with no recourse cause he’s in a pissy mood. I like living in a country that means I don’t have to worry about those things. Moving back to the US? No thanks. Y’all can keep it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921/120 "2013-10-06T01:09:05Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > We are not the only country with some odd laws about their citizens living abroad. > > I was just speaking with friends from New Zealand who are nearing retirement age - and I asked if they had given any thought to moving back to Germany (family is still there). > > I was told that if you are getting retirement in New Zealand, and leave the country for more than 6 months at a time, they will stop issuing your retirement checks! > > I guess that is one way to ensure your retirees stay in NZ. Australia too. I know two elderly Aussies here. One flat out does not get anything, because he lives here and not in Australia. The other lives here but returns to Australia for a few weeks once or twice a year to visit his family. It’s also part of maintaining the fiction that he still lives there so he can still get his government pension. Not sure what he does while there, but I guess he puts in appearances at appropriate places. > [@Gleena](#): > > In the utterly unlikely event I ever move back, yeah, I’ll fess up then. But honestly, I cannot for any reason see myself going back for more than a week or two at a time at any point, and probably never again when my family is dead. I see no reason Uncle Sam should have a view to what I make when I don’t use any services. **Nevermind reporting my bank account!** Your bank account is apparently being reported to the US IRS for you now, no matter where you live. Have you heard of the new law called [Fatca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FATCA)? It just took effect recently and has caused a stir among American expats in Thailand. It requires foreign banks to report the holdings of any American customers or face penalties in any dealings with the US. Heavy penalties. Now some banks here won’t even accept any new American customers because of the hassle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-expat-americans-never-go-back-home/669921.md?page=7)