# Why do females generally play softball and males-- baseball? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927 "2015-09-29T06:40:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/21 "2015-09-30T15:09:46Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > According to [this article](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4675763), you can blame Title IX for directing women to softball. Actually, the article doesn’t say that. What it says is that Title IX considered softball “equivelent” to baseball, and therefore allowed universities to offer make one or both of them gender-exclusive. Title IX did nothing to steer women to softball rather than baseball. What it did was say that offering baseball only to men was acceptable as long as women could play softball. Universities could still offer either or both to both genders, and the fact that they didn’t do that (when they didn’t do that) is entirely on them. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/22 "2015-09-30T22:12:42Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Actually, the article doesn’t say that. > What it says is that Title IX considered softball “equivelent” to baseball, and therefore allowed universities to offer make one or both of them gender-exclusive. > > Title IX did nothing to steer women to softball rather than baseball. What it did was say that offering baseball only to men was acceptable as long as women could play softball. Universities could still offer either or both to both genders, and the fact that they didn’t do that (when they didn’t do that) is entirely on them. I think you’re drawing a meaningless distinction. Title IX defined an equivalence which caused colleges to segregate. Sure, some colleges could have swam upstream on that but why would they? Your argument is like saying that it’s not the tax code’s fault that billionaires can get by paying no taxes, they are the ones that choose to file and exploit the loop holes and write offs. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/23 "2015-09-30T22:18:50Z")
No, I thought **SpyOne** ’s comment was relevant. IIUC, Title IX explains why females **can** play softball instead of baseball, but not why they **do** , which is this thread’s question. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/24 "2015-10-01T02:00:45Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I think you’re drawing a meaningless distinction. Title IX defined an equivalence which caused colleges to segregate. Sure, some colleges could have swam upstream on that but why would they? > > Your argument is like saying that it’s not the tax code’s fault that billionaires can get by paying no taxes, they are the ones that choose to file and exploit the loop holes and write offs. No, Title IX _allowed_ schools to segregate. Title IX did nothing to incentivize the segregation. And I don’t really see any financial incentive to the segregation: who cares if you are spending $X on women’s softball or women’s baseball, either way you are spending $X. Title IX required you to spend $X, it just gave you the option of choosing one game or the other. So it is a bit like if all those billionaires used blue ink to fill out their tax forms, and saying that was caused by the tax code allowing the forms to be filled in blue or black ink. No, the tax code permitted them to make that choice, but it did nothing to encourage it, and if the ALL chose one and not the other, that indicates that _something_ was encouraging that choice. At a guess, I’d blame an existing social belief that softball was better suited than baseball to girls. That would incentivize making softball for girls instead of baseball, which Title IX then _allowed_. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/25 "2015-10-01T10:23:07Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m trying to remember which book I read that delved into it. It may have been _Andy Roddick Beat me with a Frying Pan_ in the chapter that dealt with if there were any sports in which a woman can compete with men. So the answer is “Yes, if the men have never played it before”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![brovolone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@brovolone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brovolone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/26 "2015-10-01T10:25:30Z")
Does someone mind summarizing what Title IX essentially is? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/27 "2015-10-01T12:51:11Z")
> [@brovolone](#): > > Does someone mind summarizing what Title IX essentially is? > **[Title IX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX)** > > Title IX is a landmark federal civil rights law in the United States that was enacted as part (Title IX) of the Education Amendments of 1972. It prohibits sex-based discrimination in any school or any other education program that receives funding from the federal government. This is Public Law No. 92‑318, 86 Stat. 235 (June 23, 1972), codified at 20 U.S.C. §§ 1681–1688. > Senator Birch Bayh wrote the 37 opening words of Title IX. Bayh first introduced an amendment to the Higher Education Act to ... > [@](#): > > No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance. In this context, it means schools need to provide sports options for women in equivalent ratios/numbers as they do for men. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/28 "2015-10-01T13:03:20Z")
Yes, Title IX let universities designate softball for women and baseball for men. From the article: > [@](#): > > …because softball and baseball were deemed equivalent sports during the 1970s, schools were within their rights in denying girls baseball when softball was available. The incentive for universities was that the structure was already in place. Why trouble yourself with adding women’s baseball if you don’t have to? It sure sounds like women’s baseball advocates thought Title IX could have and should have done more for their sport. ---
**Author:** ![brovolone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@brovolone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brovolone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/29 "2015-10-01T13:13:23Z")
No person shall be subjected to discrimination under any activity receiving federal financial assistance is what I read… Activity=baseball or softball meaning women should be allowed to play either baseball or softball, as men should be allowed to play either also. What’s the real reasoning? Different body composition? The elbow thing? What if a man prefers softball over baseball? Or a woman baseball over softball? No co-ed teams, period? Okay I can kinda see that. But to not be able to play baseball period as a girl? Or softball as a guy? Why? Not enough other girls able to do it without it turning into co-ed? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/30 "2015-10-01T13:27:34Z")
> [@brovolone](#): > > meaning women should be allowed to play either baseball or softball, as men should be allowed to play either also. That has never been the understanding. Courts and the administrations have recognized that what is required by the law is that everyone gets an equivalent opportunity to participate in sports, not that they have to be exactly equal. ---
**Author:** ![brovolone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@brovolone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brovolone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/31 "2015-10-01T13:30:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That has never been the understanding. Courts and the administrations have recognized that what is required by the law is that everyone gets an equivalent opportunity to participate in sports, not that they have to be exactly equal. Makes sense. So if a woman wants to play baseball, that’s okay, but not at school. Only softball since it’s equivalent. So is cheerleading the equivalent to football? Or that’s not what you mean? Just having an opportunity to participate in any selected sports. Just so happens that softball is similar to baseball. Women’s and men’s tennis, basketball, cross country, swimming, etc. I suppose these are all okay for both women and men to do separately. But not baseball or football for body type reasons? Or just no demand? Or both? Tradition? Too masculine? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/32 "2015-10-01T13:36:52Z")
> [@brovolone](#): > > No person shall be subjected to discrimination under any activity receiving federal financial assistance is what I read… > > Activity=baseball or softball > > meaning women should be allowed to play either baseball or softball, as men should be allowed to play either also. > > What’s the real reasoning? Different body composition? The elbow thing? > > What if a man prefers softball over baseball? > Or a woman baseball over softball? > No co-ed teams, period? Okay I can kinda see that. > > But to not be able to play baseball period as a girl? Or softball as a guy? > Why? Not enough other girls able to do it without it turning into co-ed? I don’t think body composition or the elbow thing are good explanations. The NPR article linked above pretty much laid it out. Women’s baseball used to be kind of popular. Then after WWII men’s baseball was televised and its popularity blew away the women’s leagues. Women were then directed to softball as the more feminine sport. There is no NCAA men’s softball because baseball is deemed the equivalent. There are men’s softball leagues, though. Both fast pitch and slow pitch. ---
**Author:** ![brovolone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@brovolone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brovolone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/33 "2015-10-01T13:40:53Z")
What’s the huge deciding factor that allows women to play ACTUAL basketball but not baseball? Just the fact that softball is a thing? And has been? And thats the way it is? How is baseball harder for a woman than basketball? Is it? Where is the science? > [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I don’t think body composition or the elbow thing are good explanations. The NPR article linked above pretty much laid it out. Women’s baseball used to be kind of popular. Then after WWII men’s baseball was televised and its popularity blew away the women’s leagues. Women were then directed to softball as the more feminine sport. > > There is no NCAA men’s softball because baseball is deemed the equivalent. > > There are men’s softball leagues, though. Both fast pitch and slow pitch. Gotcha. I missed the link. I’ll check it out. Oh so I think I get it… softball is just “well that’s the way it is now.” So we’re going to keep doing this. Or am I wrong? Wow, I’m even annoying myself at this point. Thanks guys. ---
**Author:** ![brovolone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@brovolone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brovolone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/34 "2015-10-01T14:02:12Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Universities could still offer either or both to both genders, and the fact that they didn’t do that (when they didn’t do that) is entirely on them. So it’s the schools fault for not offering baseball for women and the reason why they probably don’t is because… the women aren’t interested enough in playing baseball so they don’t bother to offer it? Clearly most women just don’t want to play baseball. Why not? If they were to offer women’s baseball-- when they go to play competitively against other schools, those schools, too, would have to have a womens baseball team… so every school would essentially have to be on board with having a female baseball team which again, would require women to want to be on the baseball team… So the only way to do this is to eliminate softball as an option. But people already like softball. Men and women both. So softball stays. Baseball stays. No women on baseball teams at school or men on softball teams because we don’t do co-ed. Baseball is for men, softball for women, and everything is kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/35 "2015-10-01T14:22:16Z")
> [@brovolone](#): > > Clearly most women just don’t want to play baseball. Why not? Well, yes and no. Back in the 70’s that’s just the way it was. Softball had been deemed the feminine sport. Women don’t want to play baseball now because it’s not, and never really was, a real option. I couldn’t even guess what the interest level would be if NCAA mandated women’s baseball. Would it become more popular than softball? ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/36 "2015-10-01T19:03:56Z")
Could it have something to do with how many innings a woman can pitch before her arm starts to give out? At pretty much every level of baseball, each team has a group of pitchers, and at levels below college, there are specified limits as to how much someone can pitch (for example, in California high schools, the limit is 10 innings per week). However, in softball, most good teams use the same starting pitcher pretty much every game, and the “limit” seems to be, “Pitch until your arm falls off - then pitch with your other arm if you can.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/37 "2015-10-01T19:41:41Z")
Overhand pitching jostles the uterus. Supply your own smilie ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/38 "2015-10-01T19:42:02Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Women don’t want to play baseball now because it’s not, and never really was, a real option. My suspicion is that **brovalone** has the gist of it: women play softball instead of baseball because that’s the way it has been for decades. In other words: tradition and inertia. So, even if women _want_ to play baseball, they (a) may not have the opportunities to do so (unless they play on a male team), and (b) likely do have the opportunities to play a similar sport in softball. Let’s say that colleges wanted to start fielding women’s baseball teams. Presumably, they would primarily draw from athletes who had played softball in high school, but you’re asking them to learn a different (though undoubtedly similar) sport. But, what you’d really want is to be getting college athletes who were already skilled at baseball…and that’d mean getting high schools (and girls’ youth programs) to switch from softball to baseball. All of that means a big change in girls’ / women’s athletics, at multiple levels, when there’s no single entity that could institute such a change. I suppose it’s not unlike the idea of the NCAA deciding to make, say, Australian Rules football an intercollegiate sport (I was going to give rugby as an example, but there are, in fact, a fair number of colleges with rugby teams). The question is: where do your athletes come from, if they aren’t already playing the sport in high school or grade school? ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/39 "2015-10-01T20:25:14Z")
But, the times they are a changin’… > **[Oakland Athletics hire Justine Siegal as MLB's first female coach](https://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-oakland-athletics-hire-justine-siegal-as-mlb-s-first-female-coach-20150930-story.html)** > > The National League has existed for nearly 140 years. Major League Baseball has for more than 110. ---
**Author:** ![brovolone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@brovolone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brovolone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927/40 "2015-10-01T20:49:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Overhand pitching jostles the uterus. Supply your own smilie Source?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-females-generally-play-softball-and-males-baseball/732927.md?page=3)