# Why do gays want to call their relationship a "marriage"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436 "2015-07-07T01:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/221 "2015-07-08T00:53:24Z")
> [@andros](#): > > _Yes_. > > _Yes_. > > Waiting on why. I think the best we can come to at this point is simply to recognize our different presuppositions and how they shape our conclusions. First, I assume that men and women are very different and that these differences are genetic, not societal. Second, I assume that fathers bring something to a child that a mother cannot. Likewise, a mother to her children. These influences are unique to the sexes and are so vitally important for a child’s upbringing. Third, I believe that women especially have a hardwired attachment to the children they carry and give birth to. To squash this is to do serious harm to a woman’s emotional wellbeing. Fourth, I believe that there is a capacity for procreation in different-sex couples that does not exist in a same-sex couple. I believe that our disagreements about the same-sex marriage debate centers around these four assumptions which I make, and you do not. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/222 "2015-07-08T00:53:54Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Well hell, there’s yer problem. > > 😃 You have no idea. -VM ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/223 "2015-07-08T00:56:06Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > First, I assume … > Second, I assume … > Third, I believe … > Fourth, I believe … > > I believe that our disagreements about the same-sex marriage debate centers around these four assumptions which I make, and you do not. Ever think about testing any of those assumptions or beliefs against reality? Or even against Jesus’ teachings? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/224 "2015-07-08T00:57:05Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I believe that our disagreements about the same-sex marriage debate centers around these four assumptions which I make, and you do not. Fair enough. Tell me, though: what evidence, if any, could you be shown that would convince you one or more of your assumptions is incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/225 "2015-07-08T00:58:11Z")
So…hot about the marriage thing, but totally cool with the judgement part? What brand of Christianity condones putting the sins of others ahead of focusing on your own sins? If you can’t grasp the basics of your own faith, why would anyone care about your interpretation of who ought to get married? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/226 "2015-07-08T00:58:38Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I think the best we can come to at this point is simply to recognize our different presuppositions and how they shape our conclusions. > > First, I assume that men and women are very different and that these differences are genetic, not societal. > Second, I assume that fathers bring something to a child that a mother cannot. I thought you said, in all caps, that they TEND that way – so some women have the stereotypically masculine traits, and some men stereotypically feminine ones. > [@](#): > > I believe that there is a capacity for procreation in different-sex couples that does not exist in a same-sex couple. In _some_ different-sex couples. Again, some different-sex couples are only allowed to marry if they can show that they _lack_ the capacity for procreation. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/227 "2015-07-08T00:59:02Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Mom’s nurturing spirit shapes a child’s character in a certain way which dad can’t do. Dad’s rough and tough spirit does likewise. Where is this family you’re describing? Sounds a lot like a TV show. Sounds nothing like a real family that I have ever seen. > [@cornopean](#): > > This isn’t to say that a child raised in a single-parent family is second rate or damaged. So, to be clear: Not second-rate, just “less than ideal”. That’s a sharp razor you got there. > [@cornopean](#): > > It’s just saying what the ideal is and what we should aspire to. And by “it” you mean “you”, right? And who are you to dictate what everyone else should aspire to? -VM ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/228 "2015-07-08T01:05:05Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > When you call a same-sex relationship a marriage, you are implying that this is a perfectly acceptable way for children to be reared and nurtured to adulthood. As you say, incidentally implied. Not the main purpose. So what? > [@](#): > > The normal is no longer the actual parents of a child raising him/her. Actually, for the sake of the argument I’ll differ from **andros** on this one and say that the _norm,_ as in the vast-majority case, will still be as a matter of fact, upbringing by a hetero parental couple. What’s “a problem” with, in the face of a minority of children _not being raised from infancy to adulthood by the same hetero couple that first brought then mome, removing the burden of stigma from it_ and giving their families full equal rights? Oh, of course, but you mean it will “no longer be normal” in the sense that it will no longer be seen as that it’s “wrong” to do it some other way? Again, sorry, that ship sailed decades ago! And I notice you mentioned “heroic” foster and single parents that are “exceptions” :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: …and danced your way around addressing hetero couple \*adoptive \*parents – who BTW in the eyes of the Law ARE the “actual” parents. You also ignore blended families from second marriages. A loving, caring stepfamily is a superior childrearing environment to one in which one of the parents is a hostage and the other is feeling shackled to a spouse and child. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/229 "2015-07-08T01:08:31Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > do not the men, who function in these cases as sperm donors, feel any sense of attachment to “their” children which they helped create? Depends. Men making an anonymous donation to a commercial sperm bank for money? No, they don’t feel any attachment to any children produced, they are probably completely unaware of their existence. Men who are friends who make a donation? That varies from pretty much the same attitude at the sperm bank donor to being a full part of the kid’s life. It’s up to the adults involved. > [@](#): > > again…is it only me who senses the extreme unnaturalness of this? Is Isaiah the prophet the only one who wondered if a mother could forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? What do these women do with these feelings of attachment to the child they just birthed and which they carried and nourished for nine months? I’m sorry - are you unaware that there are women _do not want the product of conception?_ For example - women are are pregnant due to rape, who never intended to be pregnant, who are forced to bear the child anyhow (for whatever reason), and who do not want a constant reminder of their rapist around them for the rest of their lives. There are women who, awful as it is, so much do not want their children they kill them. Or abandon them to die. I realize that to some people the fantasy that every birth is an occasion of joy and every women a naturally good mother is all warm and fuzzy but that’s not reality. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/230 "2015-07-08T01:09:51Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I would say that a father brings a measure of bravado, discipline, risk-taking, and other such things typically associated with maleness. Father’s typically discipline their children with greater severity and consistency than the mother. On the other hand, a mother brings tenderness, compassion, and other such typically associated with femininity. When a child gets hurt, s/he runs to mom, not dad. Huh. Well, you have obviously never met MY parents… ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/231 "2015-07-08T01:14:03Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > First, I assume that men and women are very different and that these differences are genetic, not societal. Yes, retreat into vagueness. It’s your only hope. > [@cornopean](#): > > Second, I assume that fathers bring something to a child that a mother cannot. Likewise, a mother to her children. Please provide some examples of things that one gender brings to a child that the other gender _cannot_. > [@cornopean](#): > > Third, I believe that women especially have a hardwired attachment to the children they carry and give birth to. To squash this is to do serious harm to a woman’s emotional wellbeing. This is new. How, exactly, does allowing same-sex marriages (and calling them “marriages”) in any way “squash women’s hardwired attachment to the children they carry and give birth to.” Clearly, I missed this part of your presentation. > [@cornopean](#): > > Fourth, I believe that there is a capacity for procreation in different-sex couples that does not exist in a same-sex couple. I believe that a man/woman’s ability to create and birth a child can make them parents. I also believe that a man’s a man/woman’s capacity to create and birth a child does not make them _good_ parents. I bring this up because you seem to disagree with the second point. > [@cornopean](#): > > I believe that our disagreements about the same-sex marriage debate centers around these four assumptions which I make, and you do not. You’ll find that there are a lot of people who would rather have beliefs that agree with evidence, as opposed to clinging to their beliefs _in spite of_ evidence. Since you seem to be one of the second group, I can’t imagine why you’re wasting your time preaching at members of the first. To be clear, the fact that you’ve assumed something (for no good reason that you can articulate) does not qualify as useful evidence for anyone else. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/232 "2015-07-08T01:16:11Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Seriously, my interpretation of marriage may be “odd” to you but it has been the understanding of marriage of the vast majority of world history including the three major theistic religions. It at least deserves respect. Really? The “vast majority of human history” required fertility tests before allowing people to marry? What about all those cultures that allowed multiple wives for men? Or the few that allowed multiple husbands for women? or that didn’t have any formal ceremony at all? Or condoned a man kidnapping and raping a woman and then declaring her married to her rapist? And I think you meant “monotheistic” religions - there are a crapload of “theistic” religions, in fact, pretty nearly all of them are “theistic”, sometimes even more so than Christianity what with having multiple gods and such. Just the usual Abrahamic arrogance, thinking they’re all of humanity, history, and culture and just forget about those several billion other people, they don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/233 "2015-07-08T01:16:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Huh. > > Well, you have obviously never met MY parents… Clearly your parents are lesser human beings. I mean if I met your parents I’d treat them with respect, like I wouldn’t spit on them or anything, I’d even invite them to BBQ’s. I have no contempt for you either, I just pity you because you were denied your basic human rights by being raised by them. We’ll have to agree to disagree on the quality of your upbringing. It’s self evident to me it was terrible. Am I getting this right? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/234 "2015-07-08T01:18:05Z")
I’m so happy for the children I won’t have. This same sex male couple wouldn’t be providing a rough and tough spirit to shape our kids. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/235 "2015-07-08T01:19:11Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > …It’s self evident to me it was terrible. > > Am I getting this right? As I understand it, the correct phrasing is “less than ideal”. To say “terrible” would be acting judgmental. -VM ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/236 "2015-07-08T01:20:18Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I think the best we can come to at this point is simply to recognize our different presuppositions and how they shape our conclusions. > > First, I assume that men and women are very different and that these differences are genetic, not societal. Setting aside the old chestnut about what “assume” does, if it is only your assumption with no actual supporting data, we my dismiss it as frivolous. > [@cornopean](#): > > Second, I assume that fathers bring something to a child that a mother cannot. Likewise, a mother to her children. These influences are unique to the sexes and are so vitally important for a child’s upbringing. again with assuming. And, again, with no actual data to support your belief. I think you should spend some time looking at different societies and periods in history. If you had ever done that, you would realize that the manner in which fathers and mothers have raised their children have differed widely across the miles and ages. Assuming that traits that you impose on parents, based on your own North American, late 20th century upbringing, are actually genetic traits that have always occurred in all times and places is simply wrong. > [@cornopean](#): > > Third, I believe that women especially have a hardwired attachment to the children they carry and give birth to. To squash this is to do serious harm to a woman’s emotional wellbeing. Given the number of women I have known with no desire to be a mother, including women in the 1950s who were actually raising children, (though not well), I can pretty well declare this little more than a romantic dream. > [@cornopean](#): > > Fourth, I believe that there is a capacity for procreation in different-sex couples that does not exist in a same-sex couple. I am not sure why a couple of people have argued against this in this thread. It is not so much inaccurate as pointless and meaningless. I will grant you that a same sex couple may not (at this time) produce children on each other by engaging in sex. I will further note that that has nothing to do with anything–aside from your insistence that Jesus of Nazareth was raised in a suboptimal and probably dysfunctional family. Telling adoptive parents that they are, in some fashion, a problem, is a silly, if mean-spirited, assertion. You have repeatedly harped on the pro-creation aspect of marriage, yet there has been no Western society in my memory that has ever imposed a pro-creative test on a couple seeking matrimony. If your claims were valid, widows beyond menopause should have been routinely denied the opportunity to marry and no couple should have been permitted to marry until the woman had achieved at least one pregnancy, yet the religious teachings tend to go in the opposite direction, insisting on virginity prior to marriage, so that there could be no way to know whether the couple could procreate. This is a debate forum. Stating that you have odd assumptions is all very well, but refusing to provide a reason, suppoerted by data, for any of those assumptuions means that there can be no debate, (because you refuse to participate), and we can simply close this thread. As to your original question, this board has numerous threads pointing out the reasons behind the desire for marriage among same sex couples: the ability to provide medical instructions that are limited to “family” members, the public declaration of a life-long loving commitment that is recognized by all of society, establishing inheritance without having to have a lawyer draw up a specific contract, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/237 "2015-07-08T01:21:03Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I’m so happy for the children I won’t have. This same sex male couple wouldn’t be providing a rough and tough spirit to shape our kids. I just realized that I have no idea what the texture or tensile strength of my spirit is. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/238 "2015-07-08T01:21:36Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > When you call a same-sex relationship a marriage, you are implying that this is a perfectly acceptable way for children to be reared and nurtured to adulthood. I’m not IMPLYING that, I’m STATING that - yes, I think it is perfectly acceptable for a child to be raised by two people of the same sex who are in a committed relationship. I have zero problem with that. My religion has zero problem with that. > [@](#): > > The normal is no longer the actual parents of a child raising him/her. That’s a problem IMO. Given how f’ed up some biological parents are, IMO there are far worse things than being raised by someone other than your biological gamete donors. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/239 "2015-07-08T01:23:31Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > I just realized that I have no idea what the texture or tensile strength of my spirit is. > > -VM I may be tough as needed, but rough has never been a good descriptor of me. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/240 "2015-07-08T01:27:43Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I may be tough as needed, but rough has never been a good descriptor of me. Ah well. Maybe one of you could be tough, and the other one rough? Don’t give up. I’m sure there’s a way to provide some sort of “rough” supplements…for the sake of the children you will never have, I think you owe it to yourself to try. At least you have the comfort of _knowing_. For all I know, my spirit is smooth and creamy. More likely, parched and corroded. Crap, I’m not even sure that I _have_ one. -VM [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=13)