# Why do gays want to call their relationship a "marriage"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436 "2015-07-07T01:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/281 "2015-07-09T04:42:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why can’t he have been referring to Islam or Hinduism? Because both are just fine with polygamy, therefor do not define marriage as 1 man, 1 woman. (But rather ‘1 man and as many women as he can afford to keep’.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/282 "2015-07-09T04:45:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why can’t he have been referring to Islam or Hinduism? Because neither Muslim nor Hindu “traditional” definitions of marriage equal his. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/283 "2015-07-09T11:53:58Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m curious what the reaction would be if studies showed that gay marriage actually did lead to poorer outcomes for children, like the New Family Structures Study did. That was roundly criticized and seems to have been faulty. But what if it were bulletproof? It’s a fair question. But, like a dick, let me answer your question with a question: what if studies showed that kids raised by gay married couples had slightly _better_ outcomes than kids raised by straight married couples? Would we say, _welp, time to pack it in: opposite-sex couples should get second-class civil-union status, and only teh geys should be able to get married, because, hey, it’s only fair, right?_ ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/284 "2015-07-09T12:32:46Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m curious what the reaction would be if studies showed that gay marriage actually did lead to poorer outcomes for children, like the New Family Structures Study did. That was roundly criticized and seems to have been faulty. But what if it were bulletproof? I wonder if anyone would even care, outside the right. Or people would just say they’re free to make poor choices, or similar language re: single parent households. Excellent question indeed. Yes, if the data actually showed a problem - which it does not - then I’d consider it a valid concern worthy of further research and public health awareness. Then we’d be able to design interventions that might help alleviate some of the issues, based on what the actual problem is. If the son of two mothers needed a male role model in his life, perhaps we could increase the budget for Big Brother programs to get him that role model outside the family. Or we could raise awareness and encourage Uncles to take a greater role in their nephews’ lives. If the daughter of two dads needed a female ear to talk about periods and pregnancy prevention with, we could have school or community social workers or nurses trained and able to make contact with her to offer support and education, and make sure our sex ed classes in school are \*comprehensive \*sex ed classes (which they should be anyway, based on data we do have about comprehensive sex ed vs. abstinence only education). It should not be about forbidding or breaking up families, but providing the kind of support that they need to raise the odds of them being successful. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/285 "2015-07-09T12:45:03Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If the daughter of two dads needed a female ear to talk about periods and pregnancy prevention with, we could have school or community social workers or nurses trained and able to make contact with her to offer support and education, and make sure our sex ed classes in school are \*comprehensive \*sex ed classes (which they should be anyway, based on data we do have about comprehensive sex ed vs. abstinence only education). Say what? When my daughter menstruated for the first time, she was living with her mom, but she called me. Most of her friends were a few years older than her, so she was not surprised. We had already discussed most of the basics, and she always came to me with medical/science questions. After we talked for some time I suggested she inform her mom, since she would be the one purchasing feminine hygiene products. I also pointed out that her mom might be happier to think she was my daughter’s confidante. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/286 "2015-07-09T12:56:32Z")
I believe those were just hypothetical situations following upon the hypothetical finding that same-sex parenting did produce a statistically significant decrease in a child’s future success. The actual remedies would, of course, depend on what factors are found to be the proximate causes of the shortfall. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/287 "2015-07-09T13:01:45Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Because both are just fine with polygamy, therefor do not define marriage as 1 man, 1 woman. (But rather ‘1 man and as many women as he can afford to keep’.) [Nitpick] Islam actually limits a man to four wives maximum. So far as I know, there is no upper limit for Hinduism. And Fundamentalist Mormons suggest a _minimum_ of three wives per man for maximum post-life happiness. Needless to say, this presents significant demographic problems for their communities as they have not yet discovered a way to magically produce three infant girls for every infant boy born. Their solution seems to be abandoning unwanted/excess young males beside the road. In some cases literally. They justify the multiple wives thing based on the Bible, the very book the OP seems to consult to justify the 1 man 1 woman model… which shows just how useless the Bible is for deciding these matters. [/Nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/288 "2015-07-09T13:05:17Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I believe those were just hypothetical situations following upon the hypothetical finding that same-sex parenting did produce a statistically significant decrease in a child’s future success. > > The actual remedies would, of course, depend on what factors are found to be the proximate causes of the shortfall. Exactly. I thought the repeated use of the word “If” made that clear. First step in public health is to determine if there’s a problem. Second step is to narrow down exactly what the problem is. Only then do we move on to researching the effects and side effects of various interventions to fix the problem. So far, and probably going ahead, research into same sex parenting outcomes has stopped with the first step, because there doesn’t appear to be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/289 "2015-07-09T13:10:37Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > While I agree with everything you’ve said (but I don’t really recommend that people experiment with having the same relationship as I have with my wife), clearly you’ve missed the significance of “capacity to procreate”–the whole damn argument hinges on it. As I understand it, this “capacity” refers to two people who, if placed together correctly, might conceive a child. Key Point: There is a special exception for people who are unable to actually procreate together for any reason, unless the reason is “they are the same gender”. > > That is, people should only be able to be “married” if they can procreate. However, if they can’t procreate, they can still be married, as long as they’re not gay. > > Apparently, there is heterosexual implication to the word “capacity” that the rest of us were unaware of. > > Oh, and if this line of reasoning offends you, well, it shouldn’t. Because _children_. > > -VM My sister the lesbian raised eight daughters–a genetic one, three by her first partner, two by her current wife (genetic father was our brother) and two their took in along with their dying mother. I have no children, and I ain’t going to have any. But I can get legally married and she shouldn’t be able to? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/290 "2015-07-09T13:30:36Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Because both are just fine with polygamy, therefor do not define marriage as 1 man, 1 woman. (But rather ‘1 man and as many women as he can afford to keep’.) Hinduism is decidely _not_ just fine with polygamy. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/291 "2015-07-09T13:36:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hinduism is decidely _not_ just fine with polygamy. I was going to say, when did this occur? Did I miss the memo? Just because some rich kings back in the day (many of whom were Muslim) had a bunch of wives doesn’t mean Hinduism is OK with polygamy. On the contrary, our weddings don’t even bind you for one lifetime - they bind you for _seven_. The kings doing it just mean rich men can do whatever they want, just like the rest of time. We do have a case of polyandry, when Draupadi married five brothers, but that was a big effing deal. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/292 "2015-07-09T13:39:50Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes, if the data actually showed a problem - which it does not - then I’d consider it a valid concern worthy of further research and public health awareness. The data would need to show that children of same-sex couples were pretty far out of the normal range before it would justify anything like limiting adoption. After all, we tolerate people having children when they’re in groups known to be more likely to have significantly poorer results, such as when the parents are in poverty. Data that showed only a slight increase, but still within the normal range for heterosexual couples, certainly wouldn’t justify any public policy (and of course the data doesn’t show anything like that). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/293 "2015-07-09T13:48:29Z")
The front page of the Bergen County, New Jersey paper has a story on the conviction of a military (straight) couple in the severe abuse of their adopted children. [Cite](http://www.northjersey.com/news/new-jersey-military-pair-convicted-of-abusing-3-foster-kids-1.1370392). Warning: It’s some nasty reading. There have been other cases in New Jersey of straight couples abusing adopted and foster children. But do we say that straight couples shouldn’t be allowed to adopt or foster? No. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/294 "2015-07-09T13:51:55Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > On the contrary, our weddings don’t even bind you for one lifetime - they bind you for _seven_. The kings doing it just mean rich men can do whatever they want, just like the rest of time. Naw, it just _feels_ that way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/295 "2015-07-09T14:21:06Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > We do have a case of polyandry, when Draupadi married five brothers, but that was a big effing deal. And of course a spectacular case of polyamory in Krishna and the milkmaids, but again that’s a tad atypical. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/296 "2015-07-09T15:11:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The data would need to show that children of same-sex couples were pretty far out of the normal range before it would justify anything like limiting adoption. After all, we tolerate people having children when they’re in groups known to be more likely to have significantly poorer results, such as when the parents are in poverty. > > Data that showed only a slight increase, but still within the normal range for heterosexual couples, certainly wouldn’t justify any public policy (and of course the data doesn’t show anything like that). I agree. We don’t take kids out of less-than-optimal situations willy-nilly, or by class of parent, but only after considering the individual situation and best interests of the child. We do provide extra \*support \*to families in poverty, though. We have SNAP and TANF and Head Start and Free and Reduced Price Lunch Program and Earned Income Credit and subsidized before/after school care and free immunizations and health screenings and Medicaid… IF children of gay parents needed support (and no, in reality, they don’t) we could work that out while keeping families intact. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/297 "2015-07-09T15:14:12Z")
Adoption is kind of a whole 'nother discussion. We require a lot more from adoptive parents, regardless of their gender(s) and including demonstration of financial stability, than we do from biological parents. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/298 "2015-07-09T15:21:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > IF children of gay parents needed support (and no, in reality, they don’t) we could work that out while keeping families intact. And, again, if studies show that children of _straight_ parents were underperforming a bit compared to children of gay parents, how would we respond? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/299 "2015-07-09T15:52:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And, again, if studies show that children of _straight_ parents were underperforming a bit compared to children of gay parents, how would we respond? Then we throw out those pesky stats and go back to the Bible, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/300 "2015-07-09T15:59:57Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > My sister the lesbian raised eight daughters–a genetic one, three by her first partner, two by her current wife (genetic father was our brother) and two their took in along with their dying mother. I have no children, and I ain’t going to have any. > > But I can get legally married and she shouldn’t be able to? Well, that seems to be the position taken by the OP. More specifically, if we’re going to refer to gay unions as “marriages”, then what should we call “proper” man/woman unions to distinguish them from those less-than-ideal gay ones? Apparently, gay marriages have ruined the utility of the word “marriage”. To be clear, that’s not MY position. I was just catching you up on the thrust of the debate. It’s not about adult relationships, it’s about “capacity to procreate” and “the ideal household structure for hatching and raising children”. There has been no explanation of where this idea that children are hatched came from; however, sadly, that’s not even the most ridiculous notion that’s been posited. -VM [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=16)