# Why do gays want to call their relationship a "marriage"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436 "2015-07-07T01:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/341 "2015-07-11T20:16:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Right. My first husband was in the hospital a lot, and in some hospitals I was offered a bed, either the other bed in a shared room or a couple of hospitals had neat pullout beds from side chairs. I was offered meals, drinks, had no restrictions on my visiting hours, etc. This is in addition to being part of every medical decision, or being the decision-maker at times. Right. The friend who drove me to the hospital was offered a bed, without any questions. The nurse brought the pillows and blanket. I could name anyone I wanted to have access to my medical information. I was also given a “living will” type document where I could name any competent adult to make decisions for me had it become necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/342 "2015-07-11T22:28:33Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m curious what the reaction would be if studies showed that gay marriage actually did lead to poorer outcomes for children, like the New Family Structures Study did. That was roundly criticized and seems to have been faulty. But what if it were bulletproof? I wonder if anyone would even care, outside the right. Or people would just say they’re free to make poor choices, or similar language re: single parent households. Depends. If it were “all else being equal, children in these relationships have slightly (though statistically significantly) worse outcomes” I’d be willing to overlook that in the interests of justice. At most, I’d argue for something like what **WhyNot** suggested, exploring what, in particular, is reponsible for this effect and how we can counteract or minimize it. If it were “there is a 90 percent chance kids raised by same-sex parents will grow up to take meth, beat their spouses, and take 12 items through the express lane” I’d – well, initially I’d be skptical, because that’s so wildly at odds with the data available so far, but if that were overcome I’d acknowledge that, yes, that’s a reason to prevent allowing same-sex couples from raising children (though I still might not be against letting them marry). > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Well, there are lots of studies (valid ones, not like the Family Structures farce) that clearly show **divorce** has bad effects on the children. > > But we still allow divorce. For almost any reason, nowadays. That too; we have deteremined that the overall societal benefits of allowing divorce outweigh the negative effects for the children of these former relationships, while (to an extent and on an ad hoc basis) making resources available to lessen those negative effects. (Though it’s a slightly different situation, in that I suspect that even if children of divorced parents do have worse outcomes, their outcomes are better than those same children would have if their parents wanted – or needed – to divorce but couldn’t.) > [@simster](#): > > Similarly, if the breeder - regardless of licensed status, should ever attempt breeding with one of dissimilar pedigree, then they will never be able to have ‘real’ progeny. I think that’s a [different thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=695701) > [@Leaper](#): > > Mawwage… That’s for female-female couples. Two men get “mmariage.” ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/343 "2015-07-11T23:14:18Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s not why he was arrested. Why was he arrested, then? It sounds like he was arrested because the brother asked him to leave, and a fight ensued. I am not sure why the domestic partner of the patient, who had Power of Attorney, and that the patient _wanted_ to stay, would be the one asked to leave. I would think the brother is the extraneous one in the hospital room; he should have been escorted out. He refused to leave, physically resisting the security guards who were trying to remove him from his husband’s side, and then he was arrested. Looking at some articles available online, the daughter said that Gorley was holding onto the railing and the police began [“karate-chopping”](http://www.weareatheism.com/arrested-at-hospital-just-for-wanting-to-hold-his-partners-hand/) at his hands to make him let go. H[e was fined for disorderly conduct and trespassing.](http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/316-20/16946-what-actually-happened-to-that-same-sex-couple-in-the-missouri-hospital) So I would say that he was arrested for refusing(to the point of physical resistance) to leave his partner’s side when the guards tried to remove him, at least according to the articles I saw. If my husband were in the hospital and events went down like that, yeah, I would fight being removed from his bedside as well. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/344 "2015-07-12T02:11:29Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I happen to live in a state that had a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, or anything similar. Thanks to the SCOTUS, that amendment has been overturned, and my partner and I will be getting married later this summer. > > Our “engagement” has been almost 28 years long, and our desire to marry has little to do with governmental benefits. We want to be married simply because we love each other, and our love and commitment will endure as long as we live. > > Hell, if Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley could get married . . . . Congrats! > [@cornopean](#): > > So what term are we supposed to use when we want to refer to that relationship where procreation is a possibility? There is only one such relationship capable of procreation. We used to call it “marriage”. What is the term for it now? I would have said “co-parents” cornopean, if you are still around, it is the tendency of lesbians to have children that led me to favoring same-sex marriage, before it became legal. My son had a friend in school with two moms. At some point, they split up. And I realized that child would have had many more rights had her parents been married. She would have had a right to ongoing support from both of them. Sperm is cheap. Women are going to hatch babies, whether or not they are married to men. Unless you want to force every fecund woman to marry a man, and forbids divorce, and police bedrooms, there will be children in situations other than bio-mom-married-to-bio-dad. Those children are better-off if we encourage their parents (by which I mean the adults rearing them) to marry. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/345 "2015-07-12T02:30:14Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Why was he arrested, then? > [@raventhief](#): > > H[e was fined for disorderly conduct and trespassing.](http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/316-20/16946-what-actually-happened-to-that-same-sex-couple-in-the-missouri-hospital) You just answered your own question. He was arrested for disorderly conduct and trespassing. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/346 "2015-07-12T02:51:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You just answered your own question. He was arrested for disorderly conduct and trespassing. Trespassing - because he refused to leave his husband’s side when the hospital told him to leave. Disorderly conduct, because he got into a fight with his husband’s brother about whether or not he had the right to be there, and also physically resisting being removed. How is that \*not \*getting arrested for not leaving his husband’s side? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/347 "2015-07-12T03:09:26Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Trespassing - because he refused to leave his husband’s side when the hospital told him to leave. Pretty much. Generally, refusing to leave another’s property when asked to do so IS trespassing. > [@](#): > > Disorderly conduct, because he got into a fight with his husband’s brother about whether or not he had the right to be there Again, getting into a fight is, by definition, disorderly conduct, the reason is not relevant. The fight could have been over the color of the other dude’s tie, and it would still be disorderly conduct. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/348 "2015-07-12T03:15:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Pretty much. Generally, refusing to leave another’s property when asked to do so IS trespassing. > > Again, getting into a fight is, by definition, disorderly conduct, the reason is not relevant. The fight could have been over the color of the other dude’s tie, and it would still be disorderly conduct. Yes, but these charges were unjust (whether or not they were within the letter of the law) and demonstrate the need for marriage to protect the individuals within such couples – just as removing the spouse of a patient because they were different races would have been unjust before such relationships were legal. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/349 "2015-07-12T03:35:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, but these charges were unjust (whether or not they were within the letter of the law) and demonstrate the need for marriage to protect the individuals within such couples – just as removing the spouse of a patient because they were different races would have been unjust before such relationships were legal. Isn’t justice supposed to be blind? Getting into fights is disorderly, regardless of the excuse for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/350 "2015-07-12T03:36:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, but these charges were unjust (whether or not they were within the letter of the law) and demonstrate the need for marriage to protect the individuals within such couples – just as removing the spouse of a patient because they were different races would have been unjust before such relationships were legal. More to the point, if the nurse had looked up their information and/or taken their relationship to be a “real” marriage, she would have kicked out the _brother_, and should have done so long before it got to that point. She saw them arguing in the hallway several times and told them to cool it. That’s when one of them should have been escorted out, and it should not have been the spouse/partner/POA and pt’s choice of visitor. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/351 "2015-07-12T03:41:48Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Trespassing - because he refused to leave his husband’s side when the hospital told him to leave. Disorderly conduct, because he got into a fight with his husband’s brother about whether or not he had the right to be there, and also physically resisting being removed. How is that \*not \*getting arrested for not leaving his husband’s side? > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s not why he was arrested. Again, how is that not getting arrested for refusing to leave his husband’s bedside? He was asked to leave, he refused, and he was arrested for trespassing. Because he refused to leave. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/352 "2015-07-12T03:44:45Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > That’s when one of them should have been escorted out, and it should not have been the spouse/partner/POA and pt’s choice of visitor. How do you know that they didn’t escort out the person who was being disorderly? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/353 "2015-07-12T03:47:38Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Again, how is that not getting arrested for refusing to leave his husband’s bedside? He was asked to leave, he refused, and he was arrested for trespassing. Because he refused to leave. Again, “his husband’s bedside” is not a defense. Refusing to leave is the violation. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/354 "2015-07-12T03:51:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Again, “his husband’s bedside” is not a defense. Refusing to leave is the violation. Again, you said that’s not why he was arrested. I maintain that it was. No, he wasn’t CHARGED with it, because I doubt that’s an offense that’s listed. But it was why he was charged. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/355 "2015-07-12T03:56:54Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Again, you said that’s not why he was arrested. **I maintain that it was.** No, he wasn’t CHARGED with it, because I doubt that’s an offense that’s listed. But it was why he was charged. Ok, then please provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/356 "2015-07-12T04:05:42Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How do you know that they didn’t escort out the person who was being disorderly? By accounts of at least one (admittedly biased) eyewitness they were both being disorderly. Or perhaps neither - the daughter indicates that the brother said to the patient “I won’t let him make decisions for you” and Roger said, no, I will make decisions and you need to leave. that’s when the nurse decided Roger was to be ejected from the room. Perhaps, in the (alleged) kerfuffle, with both individuals (maybe) being disorderly, they should have removed the one who had no real legal right to be there. Or, they could have listened to the patient, who requested his husband stay. They could have easily confirmed who had the power of attorney in this case. Seriously, you are at your spouse’s bedside, their sibling picks a fight with you, you assert your right to be there - and \*you \*get thrown out. You, who has the legal right to make decisions on behalf of the patient, are escorted out, while the sibling, who has NONE, can stay- over your spouse’s stated wishes. You don’t see anything WRONG with that situation? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/357 "2015-07-12T04:10:54Z")
Do you have any evidence that he was arrested/fined for anything other than what he was charged with? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/358 "2015-07-12T04:11:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Ok, then please provide a cite. I’m sorry, what? You yourself agreed that he was charged with trespassing for refusing to leave. That’s what trespassing in this case means. Refusing to leave = trespassing. He was fined for trespassing. Because he refused to leave. Perhaps I am missing some nuance here. Please enlighten me. If refusing to leave = trespassing, then how is the “why” of the trespassing arrest not the refusal to leave? [Here is the account of the daughter, who was there.](http://www.weareatheism.com/arrested-at-hospital-just-for-wanting-to-hold-his-partners-hand/) Beyond that, I don’t even know what you want in terms of a cite. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/359 "2015-07-12T04:16:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Ok, then please provide a cite. So why was he arrested? I asked earlier. Please don’t say “trespassing and disorderly conduct.” I am not asking what he was charged with. I am asking \*why \*he was arrested - what actions of his lead to the arrest for trespassing? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/360 "2015-07-12T04:17:58Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > If refusing to leave = trespassing, then how is the “why” of the trespassing arrest not the refusal to leave? Perhaps we are talking past each other. The “why” has nothing to do with the charges, and you seem to think it does. Is that your position? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=19)