# Why do gays want to call their relationship a "marriage"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436 "2015-07-07T01:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/41 "2015-07-07T13:11:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > OP’s Wiki link: in the Netherlands there were 14,813 same-sex marriages between 2001 and 2011. There were 761,010 heterosexual marriages. So of all marriages, 1.9% were same-sex. > > Estimates of homosexuality vary from 1-10%, with the higher number encompassing those who have had at least one same-sex encounter during their lifetimes. I see from wiki that the Williams Institute report pegs the number of lesbian, gay, or bisexuals at 3.5% of the adult population. > > All of these numbers are rough and subject to error, but given that multiple intimate living arrangements are recognized by the Netherlands government (I counted 3), 1.9% doesn’t strike me as low or high for that matter. I’d need to look at a more detailed analysis. You also need to take into account the fact that there are still lots of closeted people. I assume the number of ‘out’ homosexuals is higher in the Netherlands than, say, the US, but undoubtedly there are still some who keep it a secret because of fear of family or work repercussions. It’s a lot easier to hide even a live-in lover than a spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/42 "2015-07-07T13:17:25Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I happen to live in a state that had a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, or anything similar. Thanks to the SCOTUS, that amendment has been overturned, and my partner and I will be getting married later this summer. > > Our “engagement” has been almost 28 years long, and our desire to marry has little to do with governmental benefits. We want to be married simply because we love each other, and our love and commitment will endure as long as we live. > > Hell, if Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley could get married . . . . Woohoo! Congratulations! I am really happy for you two! ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/43 "2015-07-07T14:26:11Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Bullshit. There was not a single place in the United States where a same sex civil union gave the same benefits as a marriage. It never happened. The tax laws were different in particular inheritance tax, you couldn’t get a green card for your spouse and many, many more benefits. Don’t ever say that again. It’s a complete fucking lie. So if all the states had Civil Union laws, the debate about gay marriage would disappear? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/44 "2015-07-07T14:39:26Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So if all the states had Civil Union laws, the debate about gay marriage would disappear? I doubt it. Of course not. Please read my post, and all of the other ones, for comprehension and try again. I’ll try to dumb it down for you: Civil Unions do not grant the same rights as marriages. Given that you seem to be able to at least put together a grammatically correct sentence or two, I’ll write your reply off to disingenuousness rather than stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/45 "2015-07-07T14:40:33Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So if all the states had Civil Union laws, the debate about gay marriage would disappear? I doubt it. I do, too; “separate but equal” isn’t usually a great argument these days. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/46 "2015-07-07T15:12:21Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So if all the states had Civil Union laws, the debate about gay marriage would disappear? I doubt it. We’ll never know, because the opposition to gay marriage took it off the table - the Ohio constitutional amendment that **Panache** \* mentioned is one example. It bans not just same-sex marriage, but any recognized legal construction that’s similar to a marriage. At that time, and with public opinion generally on their side, it wasn’t enough to deny gays the actual term “marriage” - gays had to be denied any formal recognition of their relationships. Opponents generally won those battles, and a lot states passed laws and/or amendments similar to Ohio’s. But history caught up to the opposition, and now that they lost the war they want to go back and get a do-over. \*Congratulations, **Panache** and partner! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/47 "2015-07-07T15:12:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I do, too; “separate but equal” isn’t usually a great argument these days. I know, it’s funny watching a woman try to use a urinal. Wait, **Panache** is getting married! Bachelor party time! Grats! ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/48 "2015-07-07T15:13:25Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I still don’t understand why gays want to call their relationship a “marriage”… Why? What does it do for them? How are things better for gays now than they were before the Supreme Court ruling? I don’t understand why non-gays want to call their relationship a “marriage”. Never been an institution I much cared for, can’t imagine opting for it myself. But hey, I’m all for letting people structure their romantic-sexual-companionate relationships as they see fit (even if I do kibbitz from the sidelines sometimes). So whether you see marriage as this wonderful thing that gay folk should not be barred from or as this mostly unredeemable institution that gay folk should be equally entitled to get themselves stuck in due to their bad judgement, it seems self-explanatory that it should be equally available to all who want it, yes? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/49 "2015-07-07T15:14:46Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Congratulations. I am very happy for both of you. Me too. Ignore my snark about marriage. Best to you both. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/50 "2015-07-07T15:39:36Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > We’ll never know, because the opposition to gay marriage took it off the table - the Ohio constitutional amendment that **Panache** \* mentioned is one example. It bans not just same-sex marriage, but any recognized legal construction that’s similar to a marriage. At that time, and with public opinion generally on their side, it wasn’t enough to deny gays the actual term “marriage” - gays had to be denied any formal recognition of their relationships. > > Opponents generally won those battles, and a lot states passed laws and/or amendments similar to Ohio’s. But history caught up to the opposition, and now that they lost the war they want to go back and get a do-over. Indeed. Had the bigots helped in structuring a nationwide same sex civil union thing that was identical to marriage, this whole thing would never have happened. Now it’s like “herp derp. What do you mean? We were always fine with civil unions.” Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/51 "2015-07-07T15:56:13Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Bullshit. There was not a single place in the United States where a same sex civil union gave the same benefits as a marriage. It never happened. The tax laws were different in particular inheritance tax, you couldn’t get a green card for your spouse and many, many more benefits. Don’t ever say that again. It’s a complete fucking lie. > > Why is it that you give a shit what “gays” want to call their relationship? Do you think that it causes you harm? Hajario, you know you can’t call another poster a liar in Great Debates. You’re getting a warning for it. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/52 "2015-07-07T16:21:23Z")
Congratulations on your engagement and pending marriage, **panache45**!!! I am so happy you finally can be married! I’ve got two friends here in Ohio that are going to get married now. They had already been engaged for quite a while but now they get to do it “for real.” Very cool! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/53 "2015-07-07T16:29:39Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Hajario, you know you can’t call another poster a liar in Great Debates. You’re getting a warning for it. Please don’t do it again. You are correct. I thought that saying that a post was a lie was ok but I was, of course, mistaken. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/54 "2015-07-07T16:33:37Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I happen to live in a state that had a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, or anything similar. Thanks to the SCOTUS, that amendment has been overturned, and my partner and I will be getting married later this summer. > > Our “engagement” has been almost 28 years long, and our desire to marry has little to do with governmental benefits. We want to be married simply because we love each other, and our love and commitment will endure as long as we live. > > Hell, if Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley could get married . . . . Let me add my congratulations and woohoo! I’ve been ashamed of our buckeye state ever since that amendment passed. At least SCOTUS has now told them what they can do with that! And they’ve cleared the way for you and your partner. You’ve been waiting long enough! ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/55 "2015-07-07T17:40:16Z")
So what term are we supposed to use when we want to refer to that relationship where procreation is a possibility? There is only one such relationship capable of procreation. We used to call it “marriage”. What is the term for it now? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/56 "2015-07-07T17:43:42Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So what term are we supposed to use when we want to refer to that relationship where procreation is a possibility? There is only one such relationship capable of procreation. We used to call it “marriage”. What is the term for it now? There was never a term used solely for relationships in which procreation between the two was possible. Before gay marriage, plenty of married couples could procreate, plenty didn’t procreate, and plenty couldn’t procreate. After gay marriage, plenty of married couples could procreate, plenty didn’t procreate, and plenty couldn’t procreate. Nothing has changed in this regard – lots of men and women aren’t capable of procreating no matter who they marry. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/57 "2015-07-07T17:44:50Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > You are correct. I thought that saying that a post was a lie was ok but I was, of course, mistaken. My apologies. I don’t think that **cornopean** was lying, but (s)he certainly was mistaken. Homosexuals fought for years to get civil unions with all the associated rights (inheritance, hospital visitation and medical powers of attorney, etc…) but were routinely shot down by the right wing. I find it amusing and ironic that this refusal to give an inch by conservatives resulted in the demands for equal rights and lead to the full on marriage equality! If they had given civil union benefits back in the eighties and nineties, we would not be where we are today. I also find it ironic and amusing that the fight for gay marriage has probably done more to stem the tide of marriage decline than anything conservatives have done. For years the [interest in marriage has declined](http://blogs.census.gov/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/2013/08/families-image4.jpg) (to the dismay of Christian, family value conservatives), but recently this has shown signs of turning around as gays have fought for their right to marry. I would bet this response will be short lived, but it is amusing nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/58 "2015-07-07T17:46:46Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So what term are we supposed to use when we want to refer to that relationship where procreation is a possibility? There is only one such relationship capable of procreation. We used to call it “marriage”. What is the term for it now? That’s funny; my dad got married last year. He and his bride are both in their early 70s have have no plans (or even the possibility) to procreate; what should I call his relationship? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/59 "2015-07-07T17:47:13Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So what term are we supposed to use when we want to refer to that relationship where procreation is a possibility? There is only one such relationship capable of procreation. We used to call it “marriage”. What is the term for it now? Still marriage. Why do you need a special term to differentiate between couples that are fertile, and couples that are not? What exactly is the use case here? What circumstances are there where it would be important for you to make this distinction? And, of course, what term did you used to use for marriages between infertile straight people? Because those sorts of marriages have been around for a lot longer, and I don’t recall this ever being a problem before now. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/60 "2015-07-07T17:47:43Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > So what term are we supposed to use when we want to refer to that relationship where procreation is a possibility? There is only one such relationship capable of procreation. We used to call it “marriage”. What is the term for it now? Well, my marriage is called a “marriage.” We’re wacky! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=4)