# Why do gays want to call their relationship a "marriage"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436 "2015-07-07T01:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/161 "2015-07-07T23:11:24Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > In a previous post, we already established that we disagree on this. I see a capacity for procreation even in infertile couples (as they themselves often discover to their joy) that is very different from what exists in a same-sex relationship. Oh, really? So a woman who is infertile due to her ovaries and uterus being removed, or a man infertile due to, say, removal of his testes due to cancer, can expect a miracle? A woman 10 years past menopause has a ghost of a chance of naturally conceiving? YOU see this as an important distinction. The vast majority of the rest of us don’t. If we did, there would be such a term. There isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/162 "2015-07-07T23:11:49Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > This is something I don’t have entirely nailed down. With my defn of marriage… See, there’s your problem: _Marriage isn’t for you to define. It has already been defined._ So, what other problems have you got that we can help you with? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/163 "2015-07-07T23:12:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But she’s not “healthy and intact.” She’s completely infertile. So shouldn’t she also be barred from marriage, just like gay people? > > Anyway, gay people who want to have children, are going to have children, regardless of whether or not we can get married. Roll back all the gay marriage laws and rulings in this country, and you’ll still have lots and lots of kids being raised by gay parents. If there were actually a disadvantage to being raised by gay parents (and study after study has confirmed that there is not) why would you want to further disadvantage the children by preventing the adults from marrying? If this were “all about the children” as you claim, you should be eager to give them every possible advantage - including the advantage of being raised in a government-recognized marriage. First, I don’t know how a study could ever prove that children raised in same or different sex households are well-raised. What is measure of this? Second, here again we just have to disagree. For me, it is just self-evident that a father brings something to a child’s nurture that a mother cannot provide and vice versa. I can’t prove it. If you don’t agree, then we are at an impasse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/164 "2015-07-07T23:16:46Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > First, I don’t know how a study could ever prove that children raised in same or different sex households are well-raised. What is measure of this? We can look at economic and educational indicators of children of same-sex couples, and they indicate that they are just as successful as other children. Considering that through human history there was no “standard” way to raise children (some cultures left it to the women of the village while the men were hunting; some were raised in a communal environment with all the adults acting as ‘parents’; some were raised in polygamous households, by the women while the men worked or fought in wars; and many, many more), why would we accept that your way is best? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/165 "2015-07-07T23:16:46Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > The children in a same-sex “family” are NEVER raised by the parents who hatched them. To me, that is an unconscionable denial of the most basic human rights to that child. Er… you are aware that lesbians are capable of human reproduction, yes? Either by having actual sex with a man (perhaps not their preferred partner, but the act is a physical possibility ) or with a turkey-baster and cooperative male donor or by going to a sperm bank? Have you no clue that there are a lot of gay men who have managed to have sex with at least one woman, thereby producing a child? Or they can hire a surrogate, just like an opposite-sex couple might. Being homosexual does not make a person sterile. It makes them less likely to reproduce by accident, but it doesn’t render them infertile. And, by your statement - you think adoption is a terrible thing? Do I understand that properly, that you think being raised by someone other than your parents is a violation of a basic human right? What do you propose we do with all the opposite sex parents who have already adopted children, throw them in jail? What are we to do with orphans who no longer have the people who “hatched” them around? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/166 "2015-07-07T23:17:03Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > First, I don’t know how a study could ever prove that children raised in same or different sex households are well-raised. What is measure of this? Personally, I would start with psychological, behavioral and educational outcomes. Kids raised by gay parents are no more likely to be damaged, be criminals or addicts, or perform poorly in school than those raised by straight parents. What other criteria would you want to add? > [@](#): > > Second, here again we just have to disagree. For me, it is just self-evident that a father brings something to a child’s nurture that a mother cannot provide and vice versa. I can’t prove it. No, you can’t…but can you at least provide an argument for why it’s even _necessary_? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/167 "2015-07-07T23:18:31Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > what kind of data would count as supporting the idea that children are better off in traditional families? For me, it’s just self-evident. No data needed. if children had a choice, they would choose the traditional family. Yeah, actually, you do need some data, because what you think of as “self-evident” is, in fact, completely counter-factual. It is, in fact, pretty easy to track how well kids are doing in different situations. You track things like health and ability to thrive, happiness, socialization with their peer group, scholastic success, mental health, tendencies towards drug or alcohol abuse, tendencies towards criminal activity… There’s tons and tons of criteria, many of them objectively measurable (some of them, like “happiness”, are obviously subjective, but can still provide useful metrics), and in every study done of children raised by same-sex couples, the children performed just as well as children of opposite sex couples. > [@](#): > > it always comes down to those of us supporting traditional marriage being bigots. the truth is…I love gay people and would cut off my arm for them. but a father brings something to a child that a mother can’t and vice versa. To me, that is just self-evident. Speaking on behalf of gay people everywhere, we really don’t need your arm. What would be nice is if you stopped equating our families to human rights abuses. Because when you say false and cruel things about us like that, it very severely damages your claim that you “love” us. For those of us on the receiving end of your “love,” it’s pretty much indistinguishable from it’s opposite. And we’re kind of sick of it. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/168 "2015-07-07T23:19:49Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/169 "2015-07-07T23:21:04Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > no one said you have to be able to produce to get married. who said that? I am simply asserting that we need some kind of term for the relationship that has the capacity (if everything is healthy and working properly) for procreation. Seems to me that’s ripe for violating medical privacy. I mean, I’ve always though my twenty five year marriage to someone of the opposite sex was a real marriage even though one of us is completely incapable of biological reproduction. Why are you demanding I re-classify my relationship to please you? Who the hell’s business whether either one or both of us is capable or incapable of biological reproduction? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/170 "2015-07-07T23:26:23Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I see a capacity for procreation even in infertile couples (as they themselves often discover to their joy) that is very different from what exists in a same-sex relationship. I’m not having any children. You can trust me on this, or you can choose not to trust me on this. But if you trust me on this, what possible reason do you have for saying there is a capacity for procreation? There isn’t. By the way, if you’re counting on a miracle, God could just as easily perform a miracle in a same-sex marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/171 "2015-07-07T23:28:53Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > With my defn of marriage, such a couple cannot get married anymore than a triangle can have four sides… > > IMO…this is just being raised by a single parent. whether there are two or three or four adults in the house is immaterial. IMO, this is just a triangle. Whether it has three or four sides is immaterial. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/172 "2015-07-07T23:36:58Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > For me, it is just self-evident that a father brings _something_ to a child’s nurture that a mother cannot provide and vice versa. I can’t prove it. You could give a little hint of what this special “something” might be…or should we play 20 questions? Is it smaller than a breadbox? Can you collect it in a Kleenex? -VM ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/173 "2015-07-07T23:39:00Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > what kind of data would count as supporting the idea that children are better off in traditional families? For me, it’s just self-evident. No data needed. if children had a choice, they would choose the traditional family. So you have an unsupported opinion and you are not even able to imagine a way to test your belief? There are any number of studies looking at the mental and emotional health of children. To test your belief, (it hardly counts as a hypothesis), we need only get a sufficiently large number of children raised in various types of families and see whether there is any statistical difference in such children as divided by family type. **IF** we found significant differences in emotional or psychological health of the children as determined by family type, we could then devise further studies to determine the sources of the good or bad health. There have been a few studies attempted along those lines. Thus far, while there is a certain amount of evidence that children in stable two-parent families tend to do better than children raised in single-parent homes, there is no evidence that the sexual orientation of the parents makes any difference. A few studies even indicate that the children in SSM homes do better. No study has been sufficiently large enough to present conclusive information. (The insistence by opponents of SSM have ensured that there are not enough Same Sex Parent homes to make it into good studies.) The lack of any serious indication among the studies that did include Same Sex Parenting that the children were harmed, however, suggests more strongly than your unsupported beliefs, that you are in error. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/174 "2015-07-07T23:40:06Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > if children had a choice, they would choose the traditional family. You don’t know children. Allowed to choose, they’d go with a pony. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/175 "2015-07-07T23:41:17Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Marriage as an institution is important because it gives expression to the fact that every child deserves to be raised by the two people who created him/her. So… you’re against sperm donation, egg donation, and embryo adoption, too? Giving up an unwanted child, or one a parent(s) can’t raise, should be illegal? You sure you want to take that stand? > [@](#): > > As soon as you redefine marriage to include same-sex couples, you break this. The very reason for marriage is now eliminated. So… in the past people never married for dynastic or inheritance reasons? Marriages for companionship are a sham? > [@](#): > > That’s why I was so insistent on knowing what term to attach to a relationship that is capable of procreation. There isn’t one, because apparently this is important only to you. > [@](#): > > Whatever we call this relationship, we have to attach to it as well the obligation that any children created by this union will be raised by the two biological parents. So… two biological parents in dire circumstances should be barred from giving up a child or children to adoptive parents that can care for them or give them a better life? > [@](#): > > To bring adoption law into this gets extremely complicated b/c almost anything is better than a child living in an institution or jumping from foster home to foster home. So… is being raised by two homosexuals better or worse than that hypothetical foster home you dread? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/176 "2015-07-07T23:44:40Z")
**cornopean** , when did you first come to realize that the reason for marriage was the ability to procreate? Was it before or after the need arose to find some non-ridiculous reason to deny marriage to gays? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/177 "2015-07-07T23:47:37Z")
**cornopean** , do we put a scarlet B on the forehead of the breeder couples or a scarlet I on the infertile ones? Because I want to know how this distinction thing of yours is going to work. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/178 "2015-07-07T23:48:51Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I know, it’s funny watching a woman try to use a urinal. . . . It would be pretty rotten, though, for the legislature to pass a law saying she may not. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/179 "2015-07-07T23:52:02Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > You could give a little hint of what this special “something” might be…or should we play 20 questions? > > Is it smaller than a breadbox? > Can you collect it in a Kleenex? > > -VM I would say that a father brings a measure of bravado, discipline, risk-taking, and other such things typically associated with maleness. Father’s typically discipline their children with greater severity and consistency than the mother. On the other hand, a mother brings tenderness, compassion, and other such typically associated with femininity. When a child gets hurt, s/he runs to mom, not dad. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436/180 "2015-07-07T23:55:09Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I would say that a father brings a measure of bravado, discipline, risk-taking, and other such things typically associated with maleness. Father’s typically discipline their children with greater severity and consistency than the mother. On the other hand, a mother brings tenderness, compassion, and other such typically associated with femininity. When a child gets hurt, s/he runs to mom, not dad. So you are going to back up your bigoted views towards gays with sexist views towards men and women? Do you plan on bringing any actual debate to this thread or are you just here to demonstrate your archaic beliefs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-gays-want-to-call-their-relationship-a-marriage/724436.md?page=10)