# Why do Germanic languages use "have" to indicate perfect aspect? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487 "2023-08-13T01:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/21 "2023-08-13T17:28:41Z")
Maybe it has to do with some difference between the aorist versus the past perfect? “My mom has died” implies it has continuing stative relevance compared to “my mom died”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/22 "2023-08-13T17:42:36Z")
I’m sure American English has been influenced by German, Dutch and Yiddish in recent centuries in ways that British English hasn’t. When Jerry Seinfeld says “Just do it already”, that use of “already” would have been completely unheard of in British English at the time, but I knew north Europeans who would use it that way when speaking English in Britain in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/23 "2023-08-13T22:25:38Z")
OTOH, the Two Ronnies were poking fun at that usage for a British audience as early as the 1970s, in their “Insurance Against Becoming Jewish” sketch: > You’re suggesting I’m already Jewish!…You’re suggesting I’m Jewish already! ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/24 "2023-08-14T09:01:59Z")
> [@restlesswanderer](#): > > Everyone here has taken a linguistic route. I’m going to go much simpler. Something in the future has not happened yet. You don’t “have” it as a part of your experiences. > > That’s it. That’s the connection I see. “Thrown the ball” is something that I own because I remember doing it. I have (own the experience) of throwing the ball. > > Ownership is likely one of the first concepts that evolves in a population where resources are scarce and taking someone else’s resources can cause injury or death. Logically, it would develop before tense, which is more abstract: the immediate matters more than what happened already. I’m interested to know if this makes sense to other people or was already obvious and I missed the point of the question… It seems to me that you’re bascially restating @JKellyMap’s point, but it’s an interpretation that makes sense. However, I’m not sure at all about the whole ownership digression, especially since the grammaticalization process that led to “have” becoming an auxiliary implies that it was not the first stage of development in the languages considered. So, it doesnt seem to be coherent with the idea that ownership was one the first concepts that appeared in human evolution. > [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > I did French for 5 years at school and we didn’t even get taught it. No wonder. As, I wrote above, it has all but disappeared from every day usage and its conjugation is tricky. You’ll find it in a lot of literary texts, though, including some fairly recent ones. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/25 "2023-08-14T11:25:08Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > …not the first stage of development in the languages considered. So, it doesnt seem to be coherent with the idea that ownership was one the first concepts that appeared in human evolution The Romance auxiliary word is rooted in a Proto-Indo-European word that meant “to seize” or “take” (its other Latin descendant gave us “capture”.) The Germanic auxiliary word is unrelated (despite coincidental similarity); it is rooted in a Proto-Indo-European word that did indeed also mean “to have, own, possess,” and meant this before the OP’s construction developed. In any case, even the Latin one meant “to have” (which is semantically similar to “seize”) by the time its use as an auxiliary in this way was happening. (You may have a point about the Latin future tense I mentioned, though — possibly the ancestor of “habere” still retained some of the “seize” sense when that grammaticalization was happening, earlier than other one). ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/26 "2023-08-14T12:47:27Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > Spanish “tiré la pelota” is “I threw the ball” (simple past) and “he tirado la pelota” is “I have thrown the ball” (compound past). “Había tirado…” is “I had thrown…” (pluperfect), and “hube tirado…” is “I had thrown…” (past anterior) (I don’t think English is capable of distinguishing between pluperfect and past anterior (something like “I used to have thrown…” vs “I had thrown…”)). > … > When I learned Spanish many decades ago, all of these tenses were in use. When I later learned a bit of Italian and French, while all the same tenses existed, they’re not all as prevalent. As I understand it, the simple past is rarely used in those languages, compared to the compound past. Hmmm…Let me think about those in Portuguese… _Joguei a bola_ - perfectly normal usage _Tenho jogado a bola_ - not so common _Tinha jogado a bola_ - pretty common _Tive jogado a bola_ - sounds weird. never heard it in the wild Perhaps “to throw the ball” isn’t fitting for some of these though. For example, using the same verb _jogar_, the phrase _tenho jogado recentemente_ (I have played [some sport] recently) would not sound weird at all. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/27 "2023-08-14T17:17:46Z")
> [@abcdefghij](#): > > When I learned Spanish many decades ago, all of these tenses were in use. The _hube tirado_ tense hasn’t been in everyday use for a very long time (100 years or more, I think). Googling “_hube_ + (other verb participles)” turns up page after page of grammar-related websites, not examples of actual usage. Wikipedia has a Spanish-language [entry on this tense](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pret%C3%A9rito_anterior): > _El pretérito anterior ha caído en desuso en español coloquial, y ha sido reemplazado en todos los registros salvo los más formales por otra forma verbal como el pretérito pluscuamperfecto, el pretérito perfecto simple o indefinido, o incluso el infinitivo._ I remember seeing it in textbooks, so I won’t argue that it hasn’t come up in classrooms in the last 100 years. The quoted Wikipedia entry states, “_…has fallen into disuse in all but the most formal of registers_,” so you might see it (in writing) in legal documents or something, but I don’t think I’ve ever come across it. The _había tirado_ tense is what’s used, and the Wikipedia entry shows other ways to say the same thing. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > …amar(e)+ (h)a(bet) = amerat ( **Spanish “amerá”** ), “he/she will love.” My bolding. The verb is _amar_, so it should be _amará_. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/28 "2023-08-14T19:12:36Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > think American English uses these tenses differently from British English. There’s an episode of Sex in the City where Miranda tearfully says on the phone to Carrie “My Mom died”. Obviously in that context you could guess that it has just happened, but British people would always say “My Mum has died”. > > When a British person hears “My Mom died.” part of them is subconsciously thinking “and the point is …?” since it could have happened any time in the last few decades, depending on the age of the speaker. This is as good a example of what I wanted to say. The main point is that in normal English, the simple past is the perfect tense and the compound past is the imperfect. “I bought …” means I did it some time in the past and it is a completed action. “I have bought…” really means I just did it and might be still shopping. I don’t know enough German to know if that is true there. French has an imperfect tense (which really has an imperfective meaning), a simple past (which is really perfective, although as noted has become rare) and a compound past which seems to me to be in the middle of the perfect/imperfect aspect. Of course there is a pluperfect in both languages using the past of have/avoir as auxiliaries. English also has the so-called progressive forms which seem to be aggressively imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/29 "2023-08-14T19:19:12Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > aggressively imperfect Well, that’s going on my business card ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/30 "2023-08-14T19:51:52Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > The simple past has become rare in French, indeed. It’s now mostly restricted to literary texts or used for comic effect in conversations. > [@Moonrise](#): > > No wonder. > > As, I wrote above, it has all but disappeared from every day usage and its conjugation is tricky. You’ll find it in a lot of literary texts, though, including some fairly recent ones. Note that “literary” here includes pulp fiction: > Il y eut un silence. Maigret était si grave que Pardon parla le premier. I have the impression that it serves to narrate a sequence of completed events. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/31 "2023-08-15T06:10:50Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > In French similarly: “Elle a mangé”, literally “she has eaten”, although the tense has a different meaning than in English. (The meaning is more like “She ate”.) Similarly in several, perhaps most Germanic languages other than English. In [German](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_verbs?wprov=sfla1) the simple past is used considerably less than in English, at least in everyday conversation. And in Afrikaans the simple past has almost completely [disappeared](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans_grammar?wprov=sfla1). ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/32 "2023-08-15T08:43:38Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I have the impression that it serves to narrate a sequence of completed events. Yes, I feel this is correct. Texts (I used “literary” in a broad sense, indeed) that use it have this sort of picturesque storytelling quality, whereas the much more usual passé composé feels more matter-of-fact to me. _Il y **eut** un silence. Maigret était si grave que Pardon **parla** le premier._ _Il y **a eu** un silence. Maigret était si grave que Pardon **a parlé** premier._ ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/33 "2023-08-15T11:32:39Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > The _hube tirado_ tense hasn’t been in everyday use for a very long time (100 years or more, I think). The subjunctive form (plus past participle) is still used, though, as in a lovely folk song by the Mexican alt-rock band Cafe Tacuba: “No me hubieras dejado esa noche.” “You wouldn’t have left me that night.” ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/34 "2023-08-15T12:08:07Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > The simple past … used for comic effect in conversations. I wanted to pick up on this. Why comedic? Because it sounds archaic, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/35 "2023-08-15T12:13:16Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > The subjunctive form (plus past participle) is still used, though,… Of course it is. I never said it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/36 "2023-08-15T12:46:24Z")
Sorry — I didn’t mean to sound like I was I questioning anything you said — just augmenting/clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/37 "2023-08-15T14:59:00Z")
Not sure if I consider Maigret pulp fiction… I’ve also seen “fut” in the French wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/38 "2023-08-15T15:52:39Z")
Thanks for saying that. Sorry if I seemed gruff. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/39 "2023-08-15T18:12:45Z")
It’s all good! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487/40 "2023-08-15T18:38:01Z")
It sounds archaic and quaint, indeed. Plus it’s not unlikely that even native speakers will make mistakes trying to use it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-germanic-languages-use-have-to-indicate-perfect-aspect/988487.md?page=3)