Where do you live?. I’m sure i’ve seen it occur on an almost daily basis.
Okay, folks, I’m sorry but I’m gonna have to see a cite for the factoid that “female elbows are anatomically different from male elbows.” If there’s such a notable difference, why is it that one of the first things you hear archaeologists and forensic pathologists say, when they’re asked to identify a skeleton, is, "Well, we don’t really KNOW whether it’s male or female, but we can go by the shape of the pelvis." Then they go on to make what I have always considered to be rather sexist remarks concerning the “fact” that the female pelvis is supposedly more “graceful”, more “shaped to hold a baby”, which I have always thought was a borderline Urban Legend.
I’ve watched more than my share of NOVA, “Nature”, and Discovery channel episodes, and I’ve never heard anybody mention differences in elbows. Sounds suspiciously like a “…they say…everybody knows…” thing, just like, “Everybody knows girls can’t play baseball.”
So, bring it on. I’m from Missouri. Any forensics people or archaeologists out there?
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beakerxf:
In fact, the only time my entire life I have encountered gender discrimination was through sports.
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Where do you live?. I’m sure i’ve seen it occur on an almost daily basis.
**
I lived in a same town in northern Nevada. For my first two years of playing boys and girls played together. Then they started a softball program and completely segregated the two genders.
The differences were quite noticeable between the two leagues. The boys got full uniforms; pants, stirrups, and newer equipment. The girls just got t-shirts and the equipment was obviously cast off. The main problem was that the girls program just didn’t attract the same amount of sponsorship money. Not getting equal press time probably didn’t help.
When I went back this summer, about 10 years since I played my last game, I noticed that the league was larger. When I had played there was only 4 teams. They now had full uniforms, attracted bigger crowds, and got pretty much the same amount of local coverage.
In some ways, I think it has to do with the equalization of women’s sports in the U.S. Aso, at the time I was playing there were a few coaches who were extremely dedicated in getting the program up and running and I noticed that they were still involved, so I’m sure they had something to do with it.
However, I have noticed discrimination even at the college level. I decided to play in the intramural league. They all had few funky rules that were meant to “equal the field between the men and women”. In softball, when the men batted, the pitcher used a larger, heavier ball. When the women hit, they switched to a smaller ball. Which seemed kind of silly to mean. After all, girls are raised playing softball, it should be the men who would need the smaller ball.
I also have problems with softball period. I don’t think human arms are designed to throw something so unwieldy. I know my shoulder suffered for it.
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"Well, we don’t really KNOW whether it’s male or female, but we can go by the shape of the pelvis." Then they go on to make what I have always considered to be rather sexist remarks concerning the “fact” that the female pelvis is supposedly more “graceful”, more “shaped to hold a baby”, which I have always thought was a borderline Urban Legend.**
TV archaeologists. Gotta love 'em. A reputable archaeologist would simply point out that the male pelvis has fused bones in the front, and the female pelvis doesn’t so the two sides can be pushed out to allow the baby through. From what I understand that sometimes an forensic archaeologist can also see signs of child birth. I never heard the “more graceful” comment in my Methods and Theory class.
**I’ve never heard anybody mention differences in elbows.
So, bring it on. I’m from Missouri. Any forensics people or archaeologists out there?
**
Note: I have only taken a few arcahaeology classes so I’m no expert.
If the pelvis is missing, he typical identifying techniques for female skeletons involve the size of the bones, because females tend to be smaller. However, this is not absolute because there are above average women and below average men. Or they’ll use the shape of the skull. It’s presumed that women have more tapered chins, for example. Throughout all of my studies, I never saw anything that claimed that men and women are mechanically different. Or that you could look at a elbow or shoulder and be able to tell the gender. Now, the center of gravity between men and women is different because of wider hips and breasts, but in my experience, that has never affected any girls’ ability to throw a ball.
Thanks, beaker. 
The “more graceful” comment is usually in the older books, say before about 1975. I hadn’t heard that you could just look at the fused bones; maybe they’ve updated the technology so they can tell more since the last time I looked.
I agree with the point about “TV archaeologists”, but I’m also including various murder mysteries, detective stories (Patricia Cornwell, et al), magazine articles, books on archaeology, etc. in my “resources”–just generally a “lifetime of reading”. They all mention pelvises as the point of comparison, not elbows.
So–anybody else?
I’ve been accused of this crime many times, and it’s true, I can’t throw a baseball worth anything, or a frisbee for that matter. Footballs, which seem harder, I can handle. Two reasons for my delinquency:
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Nobody taught me. Not because I’m a girl, but because my parents aren’t athletic AT ALL, and we didn’t have neighborhood baseball games where I grew up. My brother started out like me but after some Little League developed a good arm.
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I don’t care! Some might say that girls aren’t interested in pointless sports because they’re preoccuppied with more important things. I say it’s because there are much better sports than baseball. I don’t play soccer or run like a girl, because I think those sports are worth the time to play properly.
And before anyone retorts about our american pasttime, I don’t hate baseball. I have the same love-hate relationship with it as any other red sox fan.
What I’ve learned contradicts (in a small way) what beaver said, but he’s done more archaeology than I. If he can give a good source that indicates male pubic bones are fused, I’ll bow out. While he said he’s no expert, I’ll admit I’m just a novice.
I was taught in my Forensic Archaeology class this semester that these “scars of parturition” (the notable pitting at the pubic symphysis) are not a valid way to sex a skeleton due to the fact that many women who go through childbirth don’t have the pitting, and many men (who obviously, have also never personally experienced childbirth) do have the scars, which are a result of ‘insult’ to the cartilage between the pubic symphyses (which are not totally fused in either sex, according to my Forensic Anth. textbook).
However, there are plenty of other methods of sexing a skeleton via the pelvic bones - the greater sciatic notch, the subpubic angle (the “v” made by the joining of the pubic bones at the pubic symphesis), etc.
Sorry for the hijack.
Going to a big, internationally known church, I get to laugh every year or so at the guys coming through who consider themselves sports-proficient who can’t adapt to any of the seemingly dozens of American sports and playtime activities that involve throwing. Apparently no one does it in Europe or South America (Venezuela excepted).
IT’S ALL PRACTICE
I grew up playing baseball and football with the neighborhood boys, and though I was the tiniest girl in the class, could hold my ground with them. My stepfather taught me how to throw both a football and baseball. There was some difficulty because of my small hands, but I was determined, and my dead-on aim often compensated for my lack of muscle. I could triple skip rocks across a pond.
For many summers, I was fused to my baseball glove, and worked hard at mastering it. My biggest dissappointment in elementary school was not being allowed (I had applied & tried hard) to play Little League Baseball. This was in the 70s, and it just wasn’t done. I was furious. My immediate neighbor was the best jock in school, and I played with him every day. He even made me promise not to tell the other kids in 6th grade how I could whip his ass in streetball.
In 6th through 8th grade, I played softball. I concur with evilbeth that the softball is a cumbersome beast. I had trouble wrapping my little hands around it, and so my arm suffered. I was a dead-on catch, however. The way I started playing softball was that I went to a CYO practice game with my best pal, who was an excellent athlete; baseball as well as basketball. They were short a player, and I played shortstop, and made a great play, so was asked to join, even though I wasn’t Catholic. I was also the pinch-runner, cause I was so quick. Never could hit worth a damn -tiny size again- although I was put in strategically cause my strike zone was such that I’d be balled to first base. And could steal like a demon.
I was lucky to have men who raised me to follow my enthusiasm. My brother was not athletic, and I received all the teaching attention. My younger female cousins have the same grace, and a more even playing field. They are in their teens, and both can play with the best of em. They are tiny too, but make up for it in determination. Nobody ever told em they couldn’t.
What I’ve learned contradicts (in a small way) what beaver said, but he’s done more archaeology than I.
Hi. Actually it’s Beaker, not beaver. And it’s “she”. I seem to have one of those easily misspelled, user names.
If he can give a good source that indicates male pubic bones are fused, I’ll bow out. While he said he’s no expert, I’ll admit I’m just a novice.
Actually my good “source” is pretty much the same as yours. My Methods and Theories class. I took the class last year and recall the teacher mentioning that the symphyses was fused in males. It’s possible I misunderstood him and he was actually talking about the greater sciatic notch you mentioned. I’ve tried to find a link that would provide a source, but apparently pelvises (pelvii?) are not a popular web topic.
I don’t have my Methods and Theories text right now. I lent it to a friend and she took it with her to a dig in Turkey.
I’ll bow out. You have a text and I only have a memory. The former is obviously more reliable.
It’s already been said, but here’s a female weighing in with having had an older brother who played football in high school. Jeff made us run plays at home, and if we goofed up he was in our face saying, ‘Shape up, this is SERIOUS!’ and we’d have to keep at it until we * got it! * So, the moral is, you have to be taught.
I have two sons now, and I’m grateful for Jeff’s overbearing persistance when I was a kid muttering under my breath at ‘the dictator’, it’s paid off big time. I don’t ‘throw like a girl’ (re: inexperience) and I throw a mean frisbee too! Hey Jeff, where ever you are, ‘THANKS!’