# Why do history buffs use Loyalist instead of Torie discussing the Revolutionary War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 30, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941 "2018-12-30T20:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/1 "2018-12-30T20:57:31Z")
My school’s history books always refered to colonists loyal to the crown as Tories. The revolutionary war was repeatedly covered in nearly every grade throughout high school. Questions about the Tories and their siding with the British were always on our tests. Today, I see the word loyalist used? I read every article about the Revolutionary War that I come across. US history is one of my biggest interest. Here’s an example. The reporter uses loyalist throughout the article. Except for George Washington’s direct quote. He uses Torie. The term actually used by colonists during the war. Btw, I am very, very excited about The First Conspiracy by Brad Meltzer. I pre-ordered it and it comes out Jan 2. Meltzer’s books are always good. He usually writes research based fiction. But, this story is so fascinating that it didn’t require fictionalizing. > **[How a New York governor once plotted to assassinate George Washington](https://nypost.com/2018/12/29/how-a-new-york-governor-once-plotted-to-assassinate-george-washington/)** > > On June 25, 1775, William Tryon — the governor of the British colony of New York and a fierce loyalist to the crown — returned to New York City after a yearlong trip overseas. As such, he fully exp… > [@](#): > > By January 1776, Tryon was running an intricate spy network throughout the colonies, and building his own army by paying colonists to switch sides. > > Washington was horrified. > Seeing that New York was rife with loyalists sympathetic to Tryon’s cause, Washington came to believe they were as dangerous to the new nation as the British Army. > > In early January, he sent his second-in-command, Gen. Charles Lee, to see what he could do to stop Tryon’s activities. > > Washington wrote to Lee: “The Tories should be disarmed immediately … you can seize upon the person of the principals … And happy should I be, if the Governor could be one of them.” ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/2 "2018-12-30T21:19:08Z")
A guess: _Tories_ might be confused by today‘s readers with the present Conservative Party in the UK, while _Loyalists_ is descriptive and needs no familiarity with the usage with the period. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/3 "2018-12-30T21:41:05Z")
I hadn’t considered that Tory is still used today in England. I see that it could be confusing. Btw, to set these events in context. The conflict between Gov Tryon and Washington is in late 1775 and early 1776. The Battle of Long Island is fought Aug 27, 1776. British forces capture New York. Washington and the Continental Army are driven out. > **[Battle of Long Island](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Island)** > > British victory > The Battle of Long Island, also known as the Battle of Brooklyn and the Battle of Brooklyn Heights, was an action of the American Revolutionary War fought on August 27, 1776, at and near the western edge of Long Island in present-day Brooklyn. The British defeated the Continental Army and gained access to the strategically important Port of New York, which they held for the rest of the war. It was the first major battle to take place after the United States declared its indepe... > [@](#): > > The British dug in for a siege but, on the night of August 29–30, Washington evacuated the entire army to Manhattan without the loss of supplies or a single life. Washington and the Continental Armywere driven out of New York entirely after several more defeats and forced to retreat through New Jersey and into Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/4 "2018-12-30T22:17:35Z")
Loyalist is also the term used in Canadian histories, not Tories. Our Conservative Party is nicknamed the Tories but has nothing to do with the Loyalists. We have a Loyalist monument in our local Legislature park, erected by local families of Loyalist descent. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/5 "2018-12-30T22:38:16Z")
Similarly in Aust with the LIBs referred to as Tory, though move by LABs, than themselves. During the republican debate the monarchists were also referred to as Tories, not Loyalists. Maybe if they’d lost then history would call them Loyalists. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/6 "2018-12-30T22:50:36Z")
Not just modern, the first usage of Tory was also very different than it might’ve been used in the Revolutionary war context. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/7 "2018-12-31T01:11:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Here’s an example. The reporter uses loyalist throughout the article. Except for George Washington’s direct quote. He uses Torie. The term actually used by colonists during the war. It wouldn’t have made sense for Washington to describe his enemies as loyal, and his friends as disloyal. The revolutionaries were loyal to their friends and to their state: the conservative ruling class /monarchists were loyal to the conservative ruling class / monarchy. I think that “Tory” is still a good word for that political ideology, so my question is, how did the loaded term “Loyalist” come to be popular in the USA? It’s easy to understand Canada: in Canada, the “Loyalists” won, so they are loyal to the ongoing Canada, plus they get to call themselves whatever they want, but when did loyal Americans start calling the traitor class loyal? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/8 "2018-12-31T01:25:24Z")
I see the United Empire Loyalist Association is still active in Canada, although probably not much more than the Daughters of the American Revolution. Also, not all loyalists were affiliated with the Conservative Party, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/9 "2018-12-31T01:36:11Z")
Loyalty to the Crown is somewhat of a reoccurring theme in Canada, there’s even a reference to this in Ontario’s motto: _Ut incepit fidelis sic permanent_ “loyal she began, loyal she remains.” As others have already said, the word Tory has a completely different meaning here (and in the UK too). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/10 "2018-12-31T08:28:21Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > It wouldn’t have made sense for Washington to describe his enemies as loyal, and his friends as disloyal. > > The revolutionaries were loyal to their friends and to their state: the conservative ruling class /monarchists were loyal to the conservative ruling class / monarchy. I think that “Tory” is still a good word for that political ideology, so my question is, how did the loaded term “Loyalist” come to be popular in the USA? > > It’s easy to understand Canada: in Canada, the “Loyalists” won, so they are loyal to the ongoing Canada, plus they get to call themselves whatever they want, but when did loyal Americans start calling the traitor class loyal? Being loyal is fine; dogs are loyal. It’s still better to be a Patriot. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/11 "2018-12-31T13:07:29Z")
Just quickly searching it looks like there were refences to both “Tories” and “Loyalist” in literature from the 1920s. In my AP American History class in the last 70s, the teacher used the term “Loyalist” to describe them. It’s not really a new usage. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/12 "2018-12-31T13:20:48Z")
From wiki > [@](#): > > The term Tory or “Loyalist” was used in the American Revolution for those who remained loyal to the British Crown. Since early in the 18th century, Tory had described those upholding the right of the King over Parliament. During the war of independence, particularly after the Declaration of Independence in 1776, this use was extended to cover anyone who remained loyal to the British Crown. and about Tories in Texas > [@](#): > > Texas Revolution[edit] > > In Texas in 1832–1836, support for the Texas Revolution was not unanimous. The “Tories” were men who supported the Mexican government. The Tories generally were long-term property holders whose roots were outside of the lower south. They typically had little interest in politics and sought conciliation rather than war or they withheld judgment from both sides. The Tories preferred to preserve the economic, political and social gains that they enjoyed as citizens of Mexico and the revolution threatened to jeopardize the security of their world.[22] It seems the term was well known in the colonies, and seems to still be well known in the mid 19th century. It would be interesting to see how far back the usage goes. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/13 "2018-12-31T17:55:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Being loyal is fine; dogs are loyal. It’s still better to be a Patriot. Which the people loyal to George III considered themselves to be. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/14 "2018-12-31T18:09:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Which the people loyal to George III considered themselves to be. Did they? [The critics of British rule called themselves “Whigs” after 1768, identifying with members of the British Whig party who favored similar colonial policies. In Britain at the time, the word “patriot” had a negative connotation and was used as a negative epithet for “a factious disturber of the government”, according to Samuel Johnson.[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/15 "2018-12-31T19:08:22Z")
In war, the only moniker that matters is “winner”. The rest is silly propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/16 "2019-01-01T00:58:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Did they? > > [The critics of British rule called themselves “Whigs” after 1768, identifying with members of the British Whig party who favored similar colonial policies. In Britain at the time, the word “patriot” had a negative connotation and was used as a negative epithet for “a factious disturber of the government”, according to Samuel Johnson.[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)) That was my thought. Even back in the Revolutionary War times, Tory was a political faction in England. I assume it was applied to loyalists in America because the Tory faction was the one pushing England to pursue the war. IIRC from Barbara Tuchman’s _March of Folly_, there was significant dissent about the war in Britain, to the extent that they had to hire Hessian mercenaries because so many English were not interested in joining the army. (She makes a parallel with Vietnam War dissent in the 60’s and 70’s). ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/17 "2019-01-01T01:14:00Z")
The reasons described with causing confusion with current usage seem good enough for me. Growing up and being taught in a public school in the next town over from Concord MA, my teachers and text books did not use ‘Tories’ to describe the ‘British Loyalists’ We were taught they were called Tories at the time but most the contexts described them as loyalists. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-history-buffs-use-loyalist-instead-of-torie-discussing-the-revolutionary-war/826941/18 "2019-01-01T10:07:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Did they? > > [The critics of British rule called themselves “Whigs” after 1768, identifying with members of the British Whig party who favored similar colonial policies. In Britain at the time, the word “patriot” had a negative connotation and was used as a negative epithet for “a factious disturber of the government”, according to Samuel Johnson.[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)) From the linked article, [quote] Prior to the Revolution, colonists who supported British authority called themselves Tories or royalists, identifying with the political philosophy of traditionalist conservatism dominant in Great Britain. During the Revolution, these persons became known primarily as Loyalists. Afterward, many emigrated north to the remaining British territories in Canada.[/]so it appears that this change actually occurred during the war.