# Why do human rights vary so drastically in the middle east-northern africa region **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345 "2017-04-12T21:39:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/1 "2017-04-12T21:39:09Z")
I’m not an expert on the subject, but for example Iraq under Saddam or Syria under Assad have arguably the worst human rights. Libya was pretty bad too, about as bad. But then you have some countries that are bad, but not as terrible. Qatar, Jordan, Turkey, etc. None is worth writing home about, but they are better than Saddam’s Iraq or Assad’s Syria. Israel is the only democracy and I’m guessing has the best human rights record. However they sound like an aberration. I’d assume due to higher human capital and a lot of immigration from nations with traditions of democracy and human rights (that might be bullshit, most Israeli immigrants came from the USSR). So I’m wondering, why does Kuwait have better human rights than Saddam’s Iraq? Is it because there is less ethnic and religious strife in Kuwait vs places like Iraq or Syria? Both Iraq and Syria had a country where the religious minority ruled the nation (Iraq is Shia majority and Saddam’s ruling class was Sunni. Syria is Sunni majority while the ruling class is Shia). Plus places like Iraq and Syria have issues with the Kurds, but then again so does Turkey and their record is better. Small nations like Qatar or Kuwait have massive oil wealth and small populations, which I assume helps keep the population settled which means less brutality needed. Or was it just bad luck and someone with a better human rights record than Saddam could’ve held Iraq together just as well? So why does it vary so much? Natural resources? Religious strife? Ethnic strife? Minority ruled governments? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/2 "2017-04-12T22:20:28Z")
My first thought would be how strictly they adhere to sharia law. Not exclusively, of course, but I would think it’d be a major factor considering its draconian treatment of women and transgressors. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/3 "2017-04-13T00:53:09Z")
Modern Tunisia is a free democracy. [Freedom House](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World) ranks them a 1 (low numbers are good, 7 is max) in freedom of the press, and a 3 in civil liberties, for an overall assessment of “free.” The only other free country in the region is Israel and they get a 1 and a 2 for their scores. The next best countries are Lebanon and Morocco both with a 5/4 score (“Partly Free”), and Jordan and Kuwait, 5/5. All the other ones are marked “Not Free,” although Libya was Partly in 2013 and 2014. Turkey is 4/5 and Partly, although placed in the Europe category. For the record, the worst are KSA and Syria, which was bad in years past and got worse due to the law. Iran is “only” 6/6. The term “Sharia law” is kind of a right wing canard. There are very strict, oppressive interpretations of it, sure. But in somewhere like Lebanon, all Islamic law means are the laws related to things like when Muslims marry and divorce, but don’t apply to Christians or other religions. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/4 "2017-04-13T02:57:44Z")
Differences in freedom between various middle eastern countries are dwarfed by the distance between North and South Korea ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/5 "2017-04-13T03:07:49Z")
I am sure Palestinians would be surprised to learn if “Israeli human rights”. And [Freedom House](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House#Relationship_with_the_U.S._Government) is funded by the USG so it’s only use is finding out which country the US does not look like at the present time. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/6 "2017-04-13T03:28:17Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Modern Tunisia is a free democracy. [Freedom House](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World) ranks them a 1 (low numbers are good, 7 is max) in freedom of the press, and a 3 in civil liberties, for an overall assessment of “free.” The only other free country in the region is Israel and they get a 1 and a 2 for their scores. > > The next best countries are Lebanon and Morocco both with a 5/4 score (“Partly Free”), and Jordan and Kuwait, 5/5. All the other ones are marked “Not Free,” although Libya was Partly in 2013 and 2014. > > Turkey is 4/5 and Partly, although placed in the Europe category. For the record, the worst are KSA and Syria, which was bad in years past and got worse due to the law. Iran is “only” 6/6. > > The term “Sharia law” is kind of a right wing canard. There are very strict, oppressive interpretations of it, sure. But in somewhere like Lebanon, all Islamic law means are the laws related to things like when Muslims marry and divorce, but don’t apply to Christians or other religions. Lebanon is a lot more cosmopolitan than most ME nations as far as religion is concerned. 40% of the population is Christian, and just over half are Muslim. It’s definitely an anomaly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/7 "2017-04-13T04:21:29Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > My first thought would be how strictly they adhere to sharia law. Not exclusively, of course, but I would think it’d be a major factor considering its draconian treatment of women and transgressors. Saddam’s Iraq and Assad’s Syria were/are secular regimes. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/8 "2017-04-13T07:06:18Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I am sure Palestinians would be surprised to learn if “Israeli human rights”. And [Freedom House](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House#Relationship_with_the_U.S._Government) is funded by the USG so it’s only use is finding out which country the US does not look like at the present time. Fair enough, but then you’d think their assessment of Iran would be worse. If you prefer, the UK’s [Democracy Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index) (Israel and Tunisia “flawed democracies,” Lebanon, Morocco, Turkey, and Iraq “hybrid regimes,” Kuwait and Jordan and most of the rest “authoritarian.” Or Austria’s Democracy Ranking - they rank Israel below European/North American countries but still pretty high, the next highest ME country I see is Turkey followed by Tunisia, then Kuwait, then Lebanon, then Morocco. Yemen, Syria are down at the bottom (they don’t rank any other countries in that area from what I see). > [@Colibri](#): > > Saddam’s Iraq and Assad’s Syria were/are secular regimes. Though Saddam gave preferential treatment to one sect. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/9 "2017-04-13T08:22:55Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Syria is Sunni majority while the ruling class is Shia). No, they are dominated by the Alaouites, who are only vaguely “shia” > [@](#): > > So why does it vary so much? Natural resources? Religious strife? Ethnic strife? Minority ruled governments? Rather than isolating the region, you shoul > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > My first thought would be how strictly they adhere to sharia law. Not exclusively, of course, but I would think it’d be a major factor considering its draconian treatment of women and transgressors. Your first thought it complete nonsense. There is only the Saudi Arabia which has direct usage of a Sharia. the law in the region is almost entirely civil code and only in the family law is there real reference back to the religious law. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The term “Sharia law” is kind of a right wing canard. There are very strict, oppressive interpretations of it, sure. But in somewhere like Lebanon, all Islamic law means are the laws related to things like when Muslims marry and divorce, but don’t apply to Christians or other religions. It is essentially ignorant nonsense since the legal codes are not outside of the family law sharia codes at all. there is this weird distortion where Americans think the region is all under a religious rule when in fact the majority of the regimes have been and are entirely secular (and of course secular dictatorships, then people ignorantly wonder why secularism is not well regarded…) > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Though Saddam gave preferential treatment to one sect. No he gave pretential treatment to one lineage, the Tikritis and the people of his region. It was not essentially religious but tribal motivation. He gave preference by blood and by loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/10 "2017-04-13T11:49:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’m not an expert on the subject, but for example Iraq under Saddam or Syria under Assad have arguably the worst human rights. Libya was pretty bad too, about as bad. > > But then you have some countries that are bad, but not as terrible. Qatar, Jordan, Turkey, etc. None is worth writing home about, but they are better than Saddam’s Iraq or Assad’s Syria. > > Israel is the only democracy and I’m guessing has the best human rights record. However they sound like an aberration. I’d assume due to higher human capital and a lot of immigration from nations with traditions of democracy and human rights (that might be bullshit, most Israeli immigrants came from the USSR). > > So I’m wondering, why does Kuwait have better human rights than Saddam’s Iraq? Is it because there is less ethnic and religious strife in Kuwait vs places like Iraq or Syria? Both Iraq and Syria had a country where the religious minority ruled the nation (Iraq is Shia majority and Saddam’s ruling class was Sunni. Syria is Sunni majority while the ruling class is Shia). > > Plus places like Iraq and Syria have issues with the Kurds, but then again so does Turkey and their record is better. > > Small nations like Qatar or Kuwait have massive oil wealth and small populations, which I assume helps keep the population settled which means less brutality needed. > > Or was it just bad luck and someone with a better human rights record than Saddam could’ve held Iraq together just as well? > So why does it vary so much? Natural resources? Religious strife? Ethnic strife? Minority ruled governments? Clannishness & tribal/sectarian conflicts seems to be a major obstacle to western style democracy developing. For example, there are apparently about 150 tribes comprised of ca. 2,000 clans in iraq. There is also a high cousin marriage rate. [Consang.net](http://Consang.net) puts the cousin marriage rates for Iraq at anywhere between 25 and 53% in the 1980s and 2000s. Murphy and Kasdan’s “The Structure of Parallel Cousin Marriage” [pg. 24]: > [@](#): > > “Degree of relationship is the significant criterion in the determination of allegiances. Distance from a common ancestor in terms of numbers of intervening kinsmen is crucial to the ordering of relations within and between agnatic sections, and the principle of degree of relationship determines the composition of the Ego-centered blood responsibility group. > > “[This] fact tells us a great deal about the patrilineal units of Arab society: except perhaps at the level of the tribe, there are no lineages in the sense of bounded groups having a continuing and cohesive base in corporate rights and duties. Differing degrees of relationship within the named groupings tend to break up their internal homogeneity; they are not solidary units, but become activated only temporarily at the call of political expediency….“ This in turn supports clannishness & nepotism and works against the kind of cooperation/trust of those outside your kin-network that seems to be important for democracies. The Catholic Church in Europe seems to have reduced this trend in Europe by banning cousin marriage and there seems to have been a move away from kinship groups: > [@](#): > > “The conquest of the Western Roman Empire by Germanic tribes during the medieval period probably strengthen the importance of kinship groups in Europe. Yet, the actions of the Church caused the nuclear family — constituting of husband and wife, children, and sometimes a handful of close relatives — to dominate Europe by the late medieval period. > > “The medieval church instituted marriage laws and practices that undermined large kinship groups. > > European family structures did not evolve monotonically toward the nuclear family nor was their evolution geographically and socially uniform. However, by the late medieval period the nuclear family was dominate. Even among the Germanic tribes, by the eighth century the term family denoted one’s immediate family, and shortly afterwards tribes were no longer institutionally relevant. Thirteenth-century English court rolls reflect that even cousins were as likely to be in the presence of non-kin as with each other. > > “The practices the church advocated, such as monogamy, are still the norm in Europe. Consanguineous marriages in contemporary Europe account for less than one percent of the total number of marriages. In contrast, the percentage of such marriages in Muslim, Middle Eastern countries, where we also have particularly good data, is much higher – between twenty to fifty percent. Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages; the level of commercialization, class stratification, and state formation are insignificant.” > > “The decline of large kinship groups in Europe transpired during a period in which the state was also disintegrating and the church’s secular authority was diminishing…. A new solution was needed to solve problems of conflict and cooperation, and people got together to form corporations… > > “By the late medieval period, economic and political corporations dominated Europe….“Monasteries, fraternities, and mutual-insurance guilds provided social safety nets against famine, unemployment, and disability. The majority of the population belonged to such fraternities and guilds, at least in England. Because corporations provided social safety nets that were alternatives to those provided by kinship groups, they enabled individuals to take risks and make other economic decisions without interference by members of such groups. Relative to a society dominated by kinship groups, the nuclear family structure increased capital per worker by encouraging later marriages and fewer children, and it led to a more efficient distribution of labor and knowledge by facilitating migration. > > By the thirteenth century, most European principalities had representative bodies to approve taxation and communes were represented in all of them. Economic corporations, therefore, had the ability to impact policies and, in the long run, they were influential in transforming the European state into a corporation in the form of a democracy.“ > > [Family Structure, Institutions, and Growth: The Origins and > Implications of Western Corporations](http://web.stanford.edu/~avner/Greif_Papers/2006%20AER%20Families%20and%20Corporations.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/11 "2017-04-13T12:17:30Z")
Just what is needed, the Holocaust denier to come to “explain” something. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/12 "2017-04-13T16:32:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I am sure Palestinians would be surprised to learn if “Israeli human rights”. And [Freedom House](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House#Relationship_with_the_U.S._Government) is funded by the USG so it’s only use is finding out which country the US does not look like at the present time. +1000 to both of your statements. Freedom House considered South Africa to be a “partly free” country in the 1980s, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/13 "2017-04-13T16:38:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’d assume due to higher human capital and a lot of immigration from nations with traditions of democracy and human rights (that might be bullshit, most Israeli immigrants came from the USSR). I believe at this point most Israelis are of Middle Eastern Jewish (Sephardic / Mizrahi) ethnicity, not Russian, although there are a fair number of Russian Jews as well. You’re correct that both the Middle Eastern Jews and the Russian Jews tend to be much less liberal on democracy / human rights issues than the initial settlers, which is why the Israeli political spectrum has shifted in a more hardline direction over time. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/14 "2017-04-13T17:20:01Z")
Plus “freedom” and “human rights” are how does one say this politely? Subjective terms, ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/15 "2017-04-13T18:37:56Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Your first thought it complete nonsense. > > There is only the Saudi Arabia which has direct usage of a Sharia. > > the law in the region is almost entirely civil code and only in the family law is there real reference back to the religious law. Snark aside, I see a number of ME governments that apply sharia law: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application\_of\_Islamic\_law\_by\_country#Map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country#Map) Notice how the majority of countries in the heart of the ME apply it **in full.** But please, regale us with how much of an expert you are on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/16 "2017-04-13T19:04:31Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Snark aside, I see a number of ME governments that apply sharia law: > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application\_of\_Islamic\_law\_by\_country#Map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country#Map) > > Notice how the majority of countries in the heart of the ME apply it **in full.** > > But please, regale us with how much of an expert you are on the subject. Ah the wiki Scholarship - with a Map! so impressive. The map is inaccurate For example Morocco, the personal family law, the Moudaouana is civil code incorporating in this standard civil code framework the framing of the Islamic law, such as the marriage, but it is not direct sharia law, it is a civil code intepretation - and indeed imposes directly secular law restrictions as that do not exist in the sharia. The same is the case for the majority of the North African countries (the yellow coded). The purple coding on that map is very dubioius and inaccurate, the Yemen it is claiming direct application but it is noting “Law 20/1992 regulates personal status. The constitution mentions sharia” - this is not direct application it is civil code incorporating some of the features. As the article I link to discusses, despite the pious constitutional political hand waving, the actual application is not there, the law codes are effectively code civil with some of the islamic law retouches. In the same fashion on Iraq, the purple is a ridiculous coding, from the wiki page own discussion > [@](#): > > ``` > Article 1 of Civil Code identifies Islamic law as a main source of legislation.[82] The 1958 Code, made polygamy extremely difficult, granted child custody to the mother in case of divorce, prohibited repudiation and marriage under the age of 16.[83] In 1995, Iraq introduced Sharia punishment for certain types of criminal offenses.[84] Iraq's legal system is based on French civil law as well as Sunni and Jafari (Shi’ite) interpretations of Sharia.[85] Article 41 of the constitution allows for personal status matters (such as marriage, divorce and inheritance) to be governed by the rules of each religious group. The article has not yet been put into effect, and a unified personal status law remains in place that builds on the 1959 personal status code.[86] > > ``` There is one country where “sharia” is the direct law, it is Saudi Arabia. [This article is a more useful overview,](http://www.mondaq.com/x/52976/international+trade+investment/Application+Of+Islamic+Law+In+The+Middle+East) and you will notice the wikimap is inaccurate in the fundamental details. Your supposisition was and is ignorant nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/17 "2017-04-13T19:37:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > My first thought would be how strictly they adhere to sharia law. Not exclusively, of course, but I would think it’d be a major factor considering its draconian treatment of women and transgressors. Shira law by itself is anti human rights. So nations that use Sharia law and lack the infrastruce for communications, or have the government control the flow of information are hot spots for human rights abusers, who are mostly religious nuts or dictators. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/18 "2017-04-13T19:52:35Z")
Oh the wonderful learned statements of the religious hatred repeaters. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/19 "2017-04-13T20:14:01Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > There is one country where “sharia” is the direct law, it is Saudi Arabia. > > [This article is a more useful overview,](http://www.mondaq.com/x/52976/international+trade+investment/Application+Of+Islamic+Law+In+The+Middle+East) and you will notice the wikimap is inaccurate in the fundamental details. > > Your supposisition was and is ignorant nonsense. That’s nitpicking in the extreme. The wiki article and the one you link to both make it clear that Islamic law has varying effects in the countries under discussion and it is applied to varying degrees. I believe that the degree to which religion and ideology is codified into law is a pretty good indicator of how free a country will be. The less religion or ideology in law, the freer the country. Do you not think that is a reasonable position? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345/20 "2017-04-13T20:25:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s nitpicking in the extreme. No, I am not. the majority of the ‘codification’ is reference to the family law and if it were not for using the so scary to westerners term “sharia” would not be any more remarkable than the origins of much of the continental European family law practices in the Canon law (or the continued presence of the same). In all but the Saudi arabia, the legal practice is an influence of the old Islamic law principals on what is in essence the Code Civil, it is civil codification tweaked. > [@](#): > > The wiki article and the one you link to both make it clear that Islamic law has varying effects in the countries under discussion and it is applied to varying degrees. The wiki map and article is full of inaccuracies and very dubious assertions, but the Islamic influence on the civil codification is not fundamentally a different thing than the Christian influence on the European codes in the terms of the values, the norms (things the American christians proudly proclaim of course). > [@](#): > > I believe that the degree to which religion and ideology is codified into law is a pretty good indicator of how free a country will be. The less religion or ideology in law, the freer the country. This will be news to the Western Europeans. Ideology is always in law, it is ridiculous to think otherwise, and the Christian religion frames the sourcing and the traditions -but of course you normalize this away. > [@](#): > > Do you not think that is a reasonable position? No, it is empty of content. There is nothing particularly Islamic about the secular dictatorships that prevailed in the region since the independence and their censorship laws or practices, in fact largely copied and learned from the Soviets. There is no Islamic explanation for their laws or practices inspired directly from the Soviets. The Pure secularism. A bad form of the secularism, but pure. But of course Americans believe that only the past ten years exist and ignore actual history. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-human-rights-vary-so-drastically-in-the-middle-east-northern-africa-region/784345.md?page=2)