# Why do I have such a problem with understanding music theory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268 "2017-12-12T06:34:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/21 "2017-12-12T19:24:33Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Hey! Can you send that to me? I doubt it will stick, but I would appreciate the look. > > Thanks! šŸ˜‰ > [@Crotalus](#): > > Done. I am curious to know which it resembles more: Charlie Brownā€™s teacher talking or Woodstock talking. Hey! I want a copy too! (Please?) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/22 "2017-12-12T19:33:34Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hey! I want a copy too! (Please?) Itā€™s good stuff! Itā€™s the stuff I have sorta accumulated over the years, but documented clearly and concisely. Itā€™s not stuff I retain and use actively when I am playing, but itā€™s the common-sense stuff I ground myself on. Nice job and thank you, **Crotalus**!! ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/23 "2017-12-12T19:34:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hey! I want a copy too! (Please?) Sent. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/24 "2017-12-12T19:45:11Z")
I wonder if itā€™s easier for piano/keyboard players to understand music theory, because thereā€™s a one-to-one correspondence between notes and the keys that are laid out in a row before them. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/25 "2017-12-12T19:50:25Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I wonder if itā€™s easier for piano/keyboard players to understand music theory, because thereā€™s a one-to-one correspondence between notes and the keys that are laid out in a row before them. Absolutely, especially when it comes to black notes and sharps/flats. These donā€™t technically exist on the guitar neck and their fret placement changes as you go from string to string. The sound of a scale, interval, or chord however is much the same for piano and guitar, and sound is ultimately what youā€™re after. Knowing both piano and guitar, particularly by ear, is a huge advantage when learning music. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/26 "2017-12-12T20:00:31Z")
I agree with **Biffster**. When teaching theory to guitar students, I have always used a picture of a keyboard with the white keys labeled to illustrate how chords are built from the notes of the scale. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/27 "2017-12-12T20:23:20Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I suffer from the same problem as the OP. Iā€™ve played trombone for almost 30 years and while I understand how to read music (my music in front of me) and have a high skill when it comes to physically playing, thatā€™s about as far as I can go. A lot of the time Iā€™m not even reading the music, Iā€™m reading it as positions/fingerings. I canā€™t transpose,\*\* I canā€™t pull a scale out of the air, I canā€™t play an improv solo to save my life. \*\*I play baritone one day a year for a Christmas event and play the treble clef music instead of the bass clef music (which is what one plays as a trombone player) just because itā€™s easier for me to just write the fingerings in than to interpret the notes. > > I tried pretty hard in college to make it make sense but I just couldnā€™t get it. I loved to play through college but after that I just pretty much gave up being serious about music because I wasnā€™t progressing. I was still having fun though, and joined a community band for a bit but then gave that up too. > > For me I decided I just didnā€™t have the mathematical mind to make it happen. My best friend is a trumpet player and a computer programmer and knows theory like a pro. My business partner is a piano player and a computer programmer and the same way, even better than my best friend. Iā€™m in ā€œthe computer programming fieldā€ but I am way more ā€œartsā€ oriented than both of them and they are actual real programmers while, once again, Iā€™m fakinā€™ it til I make it. > > Good luck to the OP. You might just not have the right ā€œtype of mindā€ for music theory. Doesnā€™t mean you have to stop playing. Just donā€™t take a solo šŸ˜‰ Regarding the bolded phrase: thatā€™s hilarious. All I can do is improvise! Until I could dip into YouTube How to Play vids, I typically got maybe 80% of a riff or song correct, and almost never learned the ā€œcorrectā€ lead - I just faked it the best I could and sold it hard. Not knowing how to read or much theory certainly helps with that approach šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/28 "2017-12-12T20:54:22Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > **pohjonen** , I just sent you an email to the address in your profile. It has a document I wrote years ago to help my guitar students understand enough theory to use Nashville notation and Roman numeral notation. It also explains how to build chords. It may make no more sense to you than anything else youā€™ve tried. Some of my students have found it helpful. Can I get in on this? Please, šŸ˜‰ Iā€™m always interested in reading another personā€™s approach to teaching music. Theres always new stuff I learn. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/29 "2017-12-12T21:05:42Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > **pohjonen** , I just sent you an email to the address in your profile. It has a document I wrote years ago to help my guitar students understand enough theory to use Nashville notation and Roman numeral notation. It also explains how to build chords. It may make no more sense to you than anything else youā€™ve tried. Some of my students have found it helpful. Thank you, but when I tried to open it I got, (ever so ironically) gibberish. Now, thatā€™s funny. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/30 "2017-12-12T21:14:03Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I wonder if itā€™s easier for piano/keyboard players to understand music theory, because thereā€™s a one-to-one correspondence between notes and the keys that are laid out in a row before them. Piano is very helpful. I had to really up my music game taking voice lessons. Intervals are absolutely crucial to singing on pitch. I still struggle with it. I wish we all had _frets_ on our neck. Life would be so much better. šŸ˜ƒ Everything in music ties together. starting with scales, then intervals, triads etc. Rhythm. It all builds up one stone at a time. Before long you look up and thereā€™s a house there. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/31 "2017-12-12T21:15:04Z")
Thank you all for all of the helpful responses, especially Wordman. I was feeling contemplative last night when I wrote this post and a little frustrated. Perhaps I need to quit worrying about it all, and just poke around and play. I picked up a lap steel for way cheap and Iā€™m trying to figure out what notes to fake the minors and seventh chords and if I knew how they were arrived at, it would help. Itā€™s harder to find tutorials (or tabs) for a lap steel - but actually the fretboard actually makes a kind of intuitive sense, doesnā€™t it? Thereā€™s an old fart on youtube named KountryCuz doing lessons on lap steel in E. His southern twang is a little irritating but he bogs me down with very little theory. I had learned Sleepwalk for theh regular guitar from Bruce Linquist on youtube, and picking it out on the lap steel isnā€™t so hard, at least not the single notes. Itā€™s the harmonic notes to go with them that I canā€™t seem to find. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/32 "2017-12-12T21:53:41Z")
**Crotalus** I uploaded your doc to google drive which kindly converted it to a PDF for me. Much better. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/33 "2017-12-12T21:57:59Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Regarding the bolded phrase: thatā€™s hilarious. All I can do is improvise! Until I could dip into YouTube How to Play vids, I typically got maybe 80% of a riff or song correct, and almost never learned the ā€œcorrectā€ lead - I just faked it the best I could and sold it hard. Not knowing how to read or much theory certainly helps with that approach šŸ˜‰ I think there is a wide gap between shitty guitar soloing and shitty trombone soloing. I only get to play one note at a time so it better be right! šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/34 "2017-12-12T22:14:28Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > Thank you all for all of the helpful responses, especially Wordman. I was feeling contemplative last night when I wrote this post and a little frustrated. Perhaps I need to quit worrying about it all, and just poke around and play. I picked up a lap steel for way cheap and Iā€™m trying to figure out what notes to fake the minors and seventh chords and if I knew how they were arrived at, it would help. Itā€™s harder to find tutorials (or tabs) for a lap steel - but actually the fretboard actually makes a kind of intuitive sense, doesnā€™t it? Thereā€™s an old fart on youtube named KountryCuz doing lessons on lap steel in E. His southern twang is a little irritating but he bogs me down with very little theory. > > I had learned Sleepwalk for theh regular guitar from Bruce Linquist on youtube, and picking it out on the lap steel isnā€™t so hard, at least not the single notes. Itā€™s the harmonic notes to go with them that I canā€™t seem to find. Dude - there you go! Fuckinā€™ lap steel?! And you find yourself engaged? Go for it and fuck theory!! I remember realizing I could rock in Open G following Keith. Having an open tuning that moves you opens doors. Doing it on a lap steel? Very cool. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/35 "2017-12-12T22:30:56Z")
Donā€™t overthink it. In most forms of popular music, theory is far less important than an intuitive feel for the music and a good ear. Nevertheless, it helps to have some understanding of theory, just to be able to have a vocabulary to express certain concepts that you already know intuitively. Youā€™re familiar with a major scale. You know the sound of it intuitively. You know how to play a major scale. There are eight notes in the major scale. The first and eighth notes are the same note, just an octave apart. Think of those notes as simply numbers, one through eight. It doesnā€™t matter what key itā€™s in. Those eight notes are a major scale no matter what note you start on. But each of those numbers has a unique role to play in creating chords from that scale. Play the one, the three, and the five, together, and you have a simple major chord. Make the three flat - i.e. lower that note a half-step - and it becomes minor. A minor ā€œtonalityā€ - what you describe intuitively as ā€œhauntingā€ - is created by making the three flat. The three is, therefore, really important. The seventh also plays a unique role. Adding it, or adding the flat version of it (lowered by a half-step) dramatically changes the sound of a chord or a riff. If you add the seventh to a major chord, it becomes a major seventh. You know intuitively what this sounds like. Itā€™s a staple of pop music. Listen to beginning of John Mayerā€™s ā€œNo Such Thingā€ for an example of a major seventh chord turning into a major chord. Thereā€™s a sense of tension-resolution created by the major seventh chord changing to a major chord (the 7 changing to 8.) Making the 7th flat, the chord becomes a DOMINANT 7th chord. I like to think of that word implying that the 7th goes from a ā€œpassiveā€ role to an ā€œactiveā€ role in defining the sound of the chord. The dominant seventh chord is the classic rock and blues chord. If you play some combination of the notes of the major scale, but adding a flatted (dominant) seventh, youā€™re playing a rock/blues riff. If you add that dominant seventh to a minor chord, it becomes a ā€œminor seventhā€ chord. There are many other concepts to talk about, but for now, these three basic things are important to keep in mind. Experiment with playing the ā€œoneā€ of a scale, followed by any of the other numbers. Donā€™t even make it a chord, just play separate notes. One - three - fiveā€¦ one - flat-three - fiveā€¦ one - three - sevenā€¦ one - three - flat-sevenā€¦ So much of popular music is based around these very simple concepts. There is, of course, a lot more to it, but for now, just get your head around the things aboveā€¦play around with it on a guitar, then report back. After that, I can help you understand some other things. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/36 "2017-12-12T22:38:18Z")
Lyin Eyes by the Eagles opens with G to Gmaj7 to C, Am, D Once heard, its never forgotten. šŸ˜‰ It was the first song I had ever played with Gmaj7. Lots and lots of songs use G7. The Eagles were on to a unique sound in the 70ā€™s. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/37 "2017-12-12T23:02:44Z")
Iā€™m realizing the art of lap steel is getting notes you donā€™t want ringing out to shut up. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/38 "2017-12-12T23:20:43Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Donā€™t overthink it. In most forms of popular music, theory is far less important than an intuitive feel for the music and a good ear. Nevertheless, it helps to have some understanding of theory, just to be able to have a vocabulary to express certain concepts that you already know intuitively. > > Youā€™re familiar with a major scale. You know the sound of it intuitively. You know how to play a major scale. There are eight notes in the major scale. The first and eighth notes are the same note, just an octave apart. > > Think of those notes as simply numbers, one through eight. It doesnā€™t matter what key itā€™s in. Those eight notes are a major scale no matter what note you start on. But each of those numbers has a unique role to play in creating chords from that scale. > > Play the one, the three, and the five, together, and you have a simple major chord. > > Make the three flat - i.e. lower that note a half-step - and it becomes minor. A minor ā€œtonalityā€ - what you describe intuitively as ā€œhauntingā€ - is created by making the three flat. The three is, therefore, really important. > > The seventh also plays a unique role. Adding it, or adding the flat version of it (lowered by a half-step) dramatically changes the sound of a chord or a riff. If you add the seventh to a major chord, it becomes a major seventh. You know intuitively what this sounds like. Itā€™s a staple of pop music. Listen to beginning of John Mayerā€™s ā€œNo Such Thingā€ for an example of a major seventh chord turning into a major chord. Thereā€™s a sense of tension-resolution created by the major seventh chord changing to a major chord (the 7 changing to 8.) > > Making the 7th flat, the chord becomes a DOMINANT 7th chord. I like to think of that word implying that the 7th goes from a ā€œpassiveā€ role to an ā€œactiveā€ role in defining the sound of the chord. The dominant seventh chord is the classic rock and blues chord. If you play some combination of the notes of the major scale, but adding a flatted (dominant) seventh, youā€™re playing a rock/blues riff. If you add that dominant seventh to a minor chord, it becomes a ā€œminor seventhā€ chord. > > There are many other concepts to talk about, but for now, these three basic things are important to keep in mind. Experiment with playing the ā€œoneā€ of a scale, followed by any of the other numbers. Donā€™t even make it a chord, just play separate notes. > > One - three - fiveā€¦ > > one - flat-three - fiveā€¦ > > one - three - sevenā€¦ > > one - three - flat-sevenā€¦ > > So much of popular music is based around these very simple concepts. There is, of course, a lot more to it, but for now, just get your head around the things aboveā€¦play around with it on a guitar, then report back. After that, I can help you understand some other things. Okay, this I understand. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/39 "2017-12-12T23:33:10Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > Iā€™m realizing the art of lap steel is getting notes you donā€™t want ringing out to shut up. šŸ™‚ One of my other rules: expect to spend 50% of your time making the sounds you want, and 50% of your time stopping the sounds you donā€™t want. With a lap steel I assume thereā€™s a lot of damping with your slide hand going on. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/40 "2017-12-13T01:16:26Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > Thank you all for all of the helpful responses, especially Wordman. I was feeling contemplative last night when I wrote this post and a little frustrated. Perhaps I need to quit worrying about it all, and just poke around and play. I picked up a lap steel for way cheap and Iā€™m trying to figure out what notes to fake the minors and seventh chords and if I knew how they were arrived at, it would help. Itā€™s harder to find tutorials (or tabs) for a lap steel - but actually the fretboard actually makes a kind of intuitive sense, doesnā€™t it? Thereā€™s an old fart on youtube named KountryCuz doing lessons on lap steel in E. His southern twang is a little irritating but he bogs me down with very little theory. > > I had learned Sleepwalk for theh regular guitar from Bruce Linquist on youtube, and picking it out on the lap steel isnā€™t so hard, at least not the single notes. Itā€™s the harmonic notes to go with them that I canā€™t seem to find. You need to figure out whether the harmonies are above or below the melodyā€”in Sleepwalk I believe theyā€™re below. Here is where interval understanding helps, as I believe the harmonies are a third below. That would be either four or five frets depending on whether itā€™s a major or minor third below, but itā€™s probably the next string in any event. Experiment to see what sounds best. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268.md?page=3)