# Why do I have such a problem with understanding music theory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268 "2017-12-12T06:34:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/121 "2017-12-14T18:48:17Z")
For all the do-re-mi people, the good news is that the Rodgers & Hammerstein song “Do-Re-Mi” from _the Sound of Music_ works no matter what system of solfege you use (it’s in the key of C.) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/122 "2017-12-14T18:53:51Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I took you to mean that it was reducing understanding, or increasing obfuscation, for you. But to me it looks like it is a technology that increases functionality by leaps. So maybe I didn’t get what you meant there. > > This is predicated on musicians using “doremifa…” in their process. I don’t know any that do. > > If I don’t, then this controversy just passes me by. To me they just are a sequence of the major scale notes, which may occur at different pitches. I can’t ID the notes by ear, and I don’t need to or want to. The observation of how many cycles the note is is not relevant to my process. Is this what you are talking about? Well, it was **Nava** originally, and I won’t pretend to put words into her mouth, but the point is just that: Musician A, with one set of nomenclature (do re mi fa sol representing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th notes of any major scale), will run into a communication challenge when communicating with Musician B, who has the same vocabulary but with different meaning (do re mi fa represent the absolute notes C, D, E, F, and G). So, say we’re doing a song in the key of Bb. Musician B says "play ‘Fa’, expecting an ‘F’. Musician A instead plays an Eb, which is the 4th note of Bb. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/123 "2017-12-14T18:55:28Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > “False Friend”? Roman numeral chord functions let you think analytically beyond named pitch identities, so you can apply it to all the keys. It’s a technology that we invented, just like the all others we need now, and it’s very powerful for understanding what you’re doing in music. Maybe someone with perfect pitch and a photographic memory would be an exception to this, but I’d need proof of that. In almost all vernacular music those chord functions are being used and thought of in real time, but pitch identities are dispensable. Roman numeral (Nashville) numbering is great, but it’s also useless unless you know the equivalent alphabetic chords in the key you are playing. It’s not an either/or thing; you need both kinds of knowledge to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/124 "2017-12-14T18:58:19Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > When I was learning, this helped me a lot. Learn the meaning of “whole step” and “half step” interval. Then learn that a major scale goes by steps: whole, whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half. Now you know that a major third interval is from 1st to 3rd steps in that sequence. Then you can intuit 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. Repeat the study for a minor scale, and you pretty much know the diatonic intervals. Knowing the intervals, you can start building chords, and then your guitar-hero experience kicks in to help. > > I love music theory because it makes listening to music more fun. This is how I listen to the opening bars of the “Game of Thrones” theme and think “sneaky bastards, putting a picardy third right at the beginning. The show’s barely started and things are already already getting awesomer!” I just love that shit. I love that temporary major third in the GOT theme too. By the way, you have one extra whole step in your major scale. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/125 "2017-12-14T19:00:50Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Well, it was **Nava** originally, and I won’t pretend to put words into her mouth, but the point is just that: > > Musician A, with one set of nomenclature (do re mi fa sol representing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th notes of any major scale), will run into a communication challenge when communicating with Musician B, who has the same vocabulary but with different meaning (do re mi fa represent the absolute notes C, D, E, F, and G). > > So, say we’re doing a song in the key of Bb. Musician B says "play ‘Fa’, expecting an ‘F’. Musician A instead plays an Eb, which is the 4th note of Bb. I understand that, but in looking at that issue my impulse would be to say that these syllables are only obfuscating the process, and I’m not sure why they’re being used at all. The thought experiment depends on something that’s extraneous to the process. So if you have a problem, I may just say “Don’t do that anymore” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/126 "2017-12-14T19:12:13Z")
And, of course, the Christmas classic “Deck the Halls” is sung with both movable-fa and movable-la. _rim shot_ ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/127 "2017-12-14T19:22:22Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I understand that, but in looking at that issue my impulse would be to say that these syllables are only obfuscating the process, and I’m not sure why they’re being used at all. > > The thought experiment depends on something that’s extraneous to the process. So if you have a problem, I may just say “Don’t do that anymore” Hah! Well, it’s not really a thought experiment, it is literally the musical vocabulary in many countries. To quote [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge)For native speakers of these languages, solfège is simply singing the names of the notes. So, fixed-do solfege is literally analogous to letter-naming the notes. And, there’s always a need to communicate relative note relations, and so a moveable-do solfege system works there. Now, there’s redundancy, of course. Depending on country/region/language, but that’s true of all languages (there are many ways in the world to refer to the thing called “sky”, just as there are different ways to refer to a specific pitch). Whether you use C/D/E or Do/Re/Mi for absolute note naming, or 1/2/3 or Do/Re/Mi for relative note naming, you need to have one system for absolute, and another system for relative. The fact that there are some cultures that happen to use the same words for different (but adjacent) meanings is of course a funny accident that can lead to some confusion when cultures meet, but it’s easily overcome. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/128 "2017-12-14T19:24:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And, of course, the Christmas classic “Deck the Halls” is sung with both movable-fa and movable-la. > > _rim shot_ :rolleyes:😃 Fixed do: Sol la ti sol la, sol fa mi fa Moveable do: Re mi fa re mi, re do ti do ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/129 "2017-12-14T19:29:12Z")
Hey! It’s not often I see an opportunity for a bad music theory joke! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/130 "2017-12-14T19:45:11Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Hah! > > Well, it’s not really a thought experiment, it is literally the musical vocabulary in many countries. > > To quote [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge)For native speakers of these languages, solfège is simply singing the names of the notes. > > So, fixed-do solfege is literally analogous to letter-naming the notes. > > And, there’s always a need to communicate relative note relations, and so a moveable-do solfege system works there. > > Now, there’s redundancy, of course. Depending on country/region/language, but that’s true of all languages (there are many ways in the world to refer to the thing called “sky”, just as there are different ways to refer to a specific pitch). Whether you use C/D/E or Do/Re/Mi for absolute note naming, or 1/2/3 or Do/Re/Mi for relative note naming, you need to have one system for absolute, and another system for relative. > > The fact that there are some cultures that happen to use the same words for different (but adjacent) meanings is of course a funny accident that can lead to some confusion when cultures meet, but it’s easily overcome. If you are in a dialogue where you are describing complex music and you are “fixed do” oriented, and using solfege terminology, how do you describe the other modes notes or keys which may be in the piece? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/131 "2017-12-14T20:00:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Hey! It’s not often I see an opportunity for a bad music theory joke! 🙂 God, you are such a music nerd 😉 (And to be clear: you know how much I appreciate that in your posts. Your combo of theory knowledge and plainspokenness always helps.) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/132 "2017-12-14T20:10:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Hey! It’s not often I see an opportunity for a bad music theory joke! 🙂 Wait, aren’t all music theory jokes bad? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/133 "2017-12-14T20:35:50Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Well, it was **Nava** originally, and I won’t pretend to put words into her mouth, but the point is just that: > > Musician A, with one set of nomenclature (do re mi fa sol representing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th notes of any major scale), will run into a communication challenge when communicating with Musician B, who has the same vocabulary but with different meaning (do re mi fa represent the absolute notes C, D, E, F, and G). > > So, say we’re doing a song in the key of Bb. Musician B says "play ‘Fa’, expecting an ‘F’. Musician A instead plays an Eb, which is the 4th note of Bb. Yeah, that. Someone who understands me! _sob_ As Saint Cecily is my witness, even the idea of a key being named with a b is anathema to me… whatever that key happens to be, I can tell you its name in Spanish is not _Si bemol_! (I’m just feeling too lazy to calculate which one it is) > [@drad\_dog](#): > > If you are in a dialogue where you are describing complex music and you are “fixed do” oriented, and using solfege terminology, how do you describe the other modes notes or keys which may be in the piece? By their names 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/134 "2017-12-14T20:49:06Z")
I’ve been in a room where someone asked “give me do” and got a _440 la_, and I was confused to hell and back because that’s a _la_ damnit, why is he asking for _do_? And if he is asking for _do_, why is the pianist giving him _la_? He was asking “give me the note I should use as the base for tuning”. Which yeah, it’s often that _la_. And yeah, “false friend” means exactly what **Eonwe** and **pulykamell** said. Words which look like they would mean the same thing, in the case of the notes even words which according to dictionaries do mean the same thing, but which do not in fact and actual use mean the same thing. Another one I also learned here: in English alliterative refers to having words with the same initial (“Peter Parker”); in Spanish, to having the same or similar consonants in a row, their position within words being irrelevant (_chancho_ is _aliterativa_ in Spanish, not alliterative in English). ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/135 "2017-12-14T21:07:20Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > If you are in a dialogue where you are describing complex music and you are “fixed do” oriented, and using solfege terminology, how do you describe the other modes notes or keys which may be in the piece? Beats me! 😉 If [you look here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge), you can see some different systems/adjustments for sharps and flats, so all 12 tones have unique names (the most simple and analogous to the lettering system being just to add the words/symbols ‘sharp’ or ‘flat’ to do/re/mi. So, you could say “fa sharp”. Just as clear as “F sharp”. Or, one of the other systems on that wiki page that I’m familiar with, where changing the vowels in the name changes the meaning; final ‘e’ (pronounced like the ‘ay’ in ‘day’) indicates a flat, final ‘i’ (pronounced like the ‘ee’ in ‘see’) indicates sharp. So, le/la/li is Ab, A, A#). But, you’ve hit on something, which is that while fixed nomenclature is useful for a lot of things, it’s not that useful in describing relationships, whether they are scales, chords, or whatever. I think there’s a use for both paradigms; I absolutely want and need to be able to describe notes out of context (most obvious example being: “start on this note”), but it also quickly becomes cumbersome and impractical to just memorize and recite absolute values for things every time you want to say “go up a third” or “play the 2 chord.” So much of music (all of music?) is about relationships between pitches or rhythm, and so it makes sense that most of the meaningful communication about it is going to require language that illuminates those relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/136 "2017-12-14T21:29:29Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Hey! It’s not often I see an opportunity for a bad music theory joke! 🙂 Take note of when it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/137 "2017-12-14T21:40:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I’ve been in a room where someone asked “give me do” and got a _440 la_, and I was confused to hell and back because that’s a _la_ damnit, why is he asking for _do_? And if he is asking for _do_, why is the pianist giving him _la_? He was asking “give me the note I should use as the base for tuning”. Which yeah, it’s often that _la_. > > And yeah, “false friend” means exactly what **Eonwe** and **pulykamell** said. Words which look like they would mean the same thing, in the case of the notes even words which according to dictionaries do mean the same thing, but which do not in fact and actual use mean the same thing. Another one I also learned here: in English alliterative refers to having words with the same initial (“Peter Parker”); in Spanish, to having the same or similar consonants in a row, their position within words being irrelevant (_chancho_ is _aliterativa_ in Spanish, not alliterative in English). That would be consonance in English (repetition of consonant sounds) as opposed to assonance (repetition of vowel sounds). ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/138 "2017-12-14T21:43:35Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > That would be consonance in English (repetition of consonant sounds) as opposed to assonance (repetition of vowel sounds). And, to continue the hijack: Consonance is repetition of consonant sounds. Alliteration is a type of consonance where the sound repetition happens on stressed syllables, not necessarily the first letter of a word. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/139 "2017-12-14T22:06:13Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Take note of when it happens. _groan_ Sorry, that fell a bit flat. It seems I’ve made a major mis-step and accidentally caused this thread to diminish into bad punnery. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268/140 "2017-12-14T22:12:06Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > And, to continue the hijack: > > Consonance is repetition of consonant sounds. > > Alliteration is a type of consonance where the sound repetition happens on stressed syllables, not necessarily the first letter of a word. Yes, and the prosodic terms will vary slightly in meaning from language to language. I wouldn’t go so far as to call the definition of “alliteration” in Spanish and English as false friends. They clearly refer to the same type of prosodic device, it’s just the rules are a little different in each language, and even within a language there can be stricter or looser interpretations of the word. Even the most basic idea of “rhyme” varies from language to language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-have-such-a-problem-with-understanding-music-theory/804268.md?page=8)