# Why do I keep losing at Texas Hold 'em? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 12, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924 "2005-06-12T02:41:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/1 "2005-06-12T02:41:50Z")
I’m playing poker online at a place called poker stars dot net. I understand the basic poker rules, and have a ‘list’ of the hands and order to help me out. I’ve been trying to get the hang of the game and am doing okay (part card luck and skill, part playing people). But I dont’ understand why sometimes I lose a hand, if someone and I have the exact hand. Most recent example: Player in spot 3 was the dealer, I was the player in spot six. We were the only two left. The community pot had nothing but a pair of fours, player 3 had a queen and a king in her hole cards, I had an ace and a king. Yet, I was shown to have a pair of fours, and she was shown to have a pair of fours ace kicker. Is there some obscure rule I’m just missing? I mean, part of the reason I play online is so that I don’t have to keep track of the numbers, I just click a button and move a slider to calculate what to put in. I should add, I’ve had this happen both for and against me, I’m trying to notice where the ‘button’ is in relation to that happenign - maybe it has to do with the bet cycle as well? I’ve asked my poker friends and they say it sounds “wrong” and I need to provide more data … which I’m working on. THoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/2 "2005-06-12T03:10:35Z")
Using Windows? Use the PrintScreen button to take a snapshot of the screen showing the apparant error, then open MS-Paint (or other graphics program), paste the image in, save it as a jpeg, send it to the people who run the website. ---
**Author:** ![Studs\_Murphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@Studs\_Murphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Studs_Murphy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/3 "2005-06-12T03:13:19Z")
It certainly sounds wrong but it’s very easy to misread hands on online poker, especially in a turbo game. Are you sure the fours with Ace kicker didn’t refer to your own hand while your opponent had, say, a flush or a straight? Also, it can be difficult to consider all possible options, especially when inexperienced (and I’m no expert). For example, you can have the best cards and see the river creating a straight in community cards that sees the whole pot split. If you are certain it’s getting the hands wrong, I would simply recommend trying another game. ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/4 "2005-06-12T03:29:13Z")
yeah. My friends just showed me how to find the text log (I have all reporting on now) so … I’ll turn off mucking for a bit and see if we can pull it from the log. I just tried this with a nice player (we were the only two in the room) and it didn’t “fail” like that on either hand (one time I had the button the other time she did). The community pair or pairs were counted, and the person with the higher kicker won. ---
**Author:** ![Lips\_Obsession](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bbce88/32.png) [@Lips\_Obsession](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lips_Obsession)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/5 "2005-06-12T14:16:06Z")
I’ve been playing at partypoker dot net recently, and haven’t had any trouble with mis-called hands as far as I can tell. But, things do go really quick, and sometimes you do miss who had what. The site where I’m playing does have a default log where you can see all the hands in history (as long as the cards were shown). ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/6 "2005-06-12T14:33:32Z")
Pokerstars is a well known brand and has thousands of players, anything weird like that happening would always be flagged by someone. I think the most likely explanation has to be that you misread the hand. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/7 "2005-06-12T14:37:04Z")
On re-read, the site referred to ([pokerstars.net](http://pokerstars.net)) does not appear to be the same as [pokerstars.com](http://pokerstars.com) which is a very reputable site (and has supplied the last two World Champions). ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/8 "2005-06-12T15:44:07Z")
> [@Mynn](#): > > I don’t understand why sometimes I lose a hand, if someone and I have the exact hand. Well strictly speaking you can’t have the \*\*exact \*\* same hand (the suits differ). However it’s certainly possible to have a **tied** hand. Using lowercase to represent the suits (s/h/d/c): Suppose you have As Kh and your only opponent has Ad Kc. The board shows Qs 9h 4d 4c 2s. Both of you have AKQ44 (= a pair with an AKQ kicker - and there are no flushes) as your best hand, so it’s a tie. But if the board showed Qd 9d 4d 4c 2d, your pair of 4’s loses to a diamond flush. It can also be confusing when several pairs crop up. Suppose you have As 9h and your only opponent has Ad 8c The board before the river shows Ah 9s 8d Jc. At the moment you lead with two pairs (Aces + nines) over your opponent’s two pairs (Aces + eights). Now the Jh turns up. Suddenly it’s a tie, because you both have Aces + Jacks, with a nine kicker. > [@Mynn](#): > > Most recent example: Player in spot 3 was the dealer, I was the player in spot six. We were the only two left. > > The community pot had nothing but a pair of fours, player 3 had a queen and a king in her hole cards, I had an ace and a king. Yet, I was shown to have a pair of fours, and she was shown to have a pair of fours ace kicker. This is not correct. You don’t give all the cards, but you are currently leading with ‘a pair of fours, ace kicker’ over ‘a pair of fours, king kicker’. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/9 "2005-06-12T15:50:55Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > On re-read, the site referred to ([pokerstars.net](http://pokerstars.net)) does not appear to be the same as [pokerstars.com](http://pokerstars.com) which is a very reputable site (and has supplied the last two World Champions). They’re run by the same company… [Pokerstars.net](http://Pokerstars.net) is play money, [pokerstars.com](http://pokerstars.com)’s for real money. There are different software downloads for each I play at the former, and have occasionally wondered about some hands. I was in a big pot, that was split with someone going all in. I ended up with a full house and for the split pot, a player with just 3 of a kind won, and I still don’t understand it. By and large, however, [pokerstars.net](http://pokerstars.net) seems pretty reputable. You write to them, explain your problem, they respond. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/10 "2005-06-12T16:26:15Z")
> [@E = mc²](#): > > I was in a big pot, that was split with someone going all in. I ended up with a full house and for the split pot, a player with just 3 of a kind won, and I still don’t understand it. Were you in the split pot? If not, then your hand doesn’t count for the ‘excess’. You should still have won the rest of the money. You can only win money where your bets ‘match’ everyone elses. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/11 "2005-06-12T16:31:35Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Were you in the split pot? > If not, then your hand doesn’t count for the ‘excess’. > You should still have won the rest of the money. > You can only win money where your bets ‘match’ everyone elses. I was the player who was pushing the betting. Made a big bet, the guy in question goes all in. With the rest of the players we continue the hand to its conclusio. I felt the $3K that the all-inner got was mine. But it wasn’t. Ah well, it was play money. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/12 "2005-06-12T16:39:45Z")
> [@Lips\_Obsession](#): > > I’ve been playing at partypoker dot net recently, and haven’t had any trouble with mis-called hands as far as I can tell. But, things do go really quick, and sometimes you do miss who had what. The site where I’m playing does have a default log where you can see all the hands in history (as long as the cards were shown). Play 5-10 No Limit at [Pokerstars.net](http://Pokerstars.net), and you’ll gnash your teeth at the slowness of it all. And it isn’t just the big bets that cause players to move at a glacial pace. They sit and ponder interminably over a lousy $10 bet. It’s friggin’ play money and they’re trying to be the Phil Helmuths of the online scene. I’ve got a $90K+ account there - IN PLAY MONEY - but I hardly play anymore. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/13 "2005-06-12T18:31:59Z")
> [@E = mc²](#): > > I play at the former, and have occasionally wondered about some hands. I was in a big pot, that was split with someone going all in. I ended up with a full house and for the split pot, a player with just 3 of a kind won, and I still don’t understand it. Did his 3 of a kind use the cards in the 2 of a kind of your full house? In other words, if your full house was AAABB, did he have BBB? ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/14 "2005-06-12T19:07:27Z")
I play slowly, but because I’m learning. I never knew about [pokerstars.com](http://pokerstars.com) - of course, I never looked. Part of the explaination above makes sense - I’m trying to recreate the problem now that I know how to extract the log file. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/15 "2005-06-12T19:46:57Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > Did his 3 of a kind use the cards in the 2 of a kind of your full house? In other words, if your full house was AAABB, did he have BBB? I really don’t recall the details. If I remember right, he had 3 aces, but without another pair in the community cards. In fact in the ‘chat’ area, the “dealer” declared him to have just 3 of a kind. I even scrolled up after the hand was over to try to figure out what happened. I had the filly, he had a set and nothing more, this was reflected in the text messaging (if that’s a proper term), but we still split the pot. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/16 "2005-06-12T19:59:02Z")
But was your full house with three aces, two aces, no aces? ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/17 "2005-06-23T02:24:22Z")
I got some info when it seemed to happen again: \*\*It just happened again for a 1500 chip pot game number 1950645778 - two of us had kings and sevens, a king in our hands. I had a 10, he had a 9. He took the pot. Why? I’ve had this happen in and out of my favor many times and I don’t get it. I’ve consulted many of my poker playing friends and they say there is no obscure rule that I’m missing, so what is this stinking bug?\*\* > [@pokerstars support](#): > > Hello, > > Hand histories for play money games are not stored to the database for > retrieval. Hand history retrieval is a premium feature reserved for > real money games only. All requests for play money hands will return > a blank hand, or “hand unavailable” message. > > However, I can assure you that the hand was awarded correctly (even > without the hand history). If you were looking solely at the dealer’s > announcement of the hands, it can be misleading however. > > As an instructive example, let’s say the hand was like this: > > nino31: KQ > Brain: A8 > MoeBiggs: A9 > > Board TT256 > > With that configuration, it the five cards hands would be as follows: > > nino31: TTKQ6 > Brain: TTA86 > MoeBiggs: TTA96 > > When announced by the dealer at showdown, they would be announced, in > order, as: > > nino31: a pair of tens > Brain: a pair of tens, ace kicker > MoeBiggs: a pair of tens, nine kicker > > The announced kickers are the ones that break the ties, rather than > the “very first” kicker. > > Thus, when “Brain” has his hand announced, he has the same pair of > tens, and the ace breaks the tie – he has an “ace kicker”. > > Then, when MoeBiggs’ hand is read, he has tied Brain with a pair of > tens with an ace. It was his “nine kicker” to that hand that broke > the tie, and that is the kicker that is announced. > > Technically, the hand played out correctly, but because of the order > in this case, the summary can be confusing to read. The software team > is aware of this technicality. > > Hopefully this clarifies the situation, let me know if you have > questions. > > Regards, > > Larry > PokerStars Support Team I still don’t quite get it, but _shrug_ that’s why I play with free money - I can refresh three times an hour. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/18 "2005-06-23T04:31:18Z")
> [@Mynn](#): > > I got some info when it seemed to happen again: > > \*\*It just happened again for a 1500 chip pot game number 1950645778 - > two of us had kings and sevens, a king in our hands. > > I had a 10, he had a 9. He took the pot. Why? I’ve had this happen in > and out of my favor many times and I don’t get it. > > I’ve consulted many of my poker playing friends and they say there is > no obscure rule that I’m missing, so what is this stinking bug?\*\* The explanation given doesn’t apply, since the hands have to be compared on the basis of five cards. If you both had two pair, kings and sevens, then your fifth cards was a 10, and his was a 9–there’s no room for the sort of explanation that they give, where he would have had a KK77T to tie you, with an 9 kicker. > [@](#): > > I still don’t quite get it, but _shrug_ that’s why I play with free money - I can refresh three times an hour. Sounds like pokerstars programmers have work to do, regardless. Are you sure you don’t remember how many aces you had? ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/19 "2005-06-23T13:18:11Z")
I just had that one ace and her hand showed the king and queen. I dunno. I don’t remember that far back, now. I played yesterday a bit and sent the info, that was the explaination I got. Then I logged in last night to Sit and Go with Ramit and ended up finishing our torney in 43rd place (out of 45) but popped in and out of hands and mini SnGs to a profitable tune of 23,000 chips. I’ll see if I see more examples of this happening (and keep my hand near the PRINT SCREEN button) and see if I can provide you and them with more detail. ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924/20 "2005-06-23T13:26:20Z")
> [@Mynn](#): > > I just had that one ace and her hand showed the king and queen. I have no idea why I wrote that. What I meant was, I dont’ remember any more than what I orginally described. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-i-keep-losing-at-texas-hold-em/307924.md?page=2)