# why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370 "2011-04-06T06:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/181 "2011-04-07T14:29:16Z")
My money is on Dio. While he is astoundingly… tenacious he seems t be largely dispassionate about it. OTHO I can almost see the spittle flying onto Finn’s monitor as he types. Dio wins because Finn has a meltdown. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/182 "2011-04-07T14:38:57Z")
That’s more than enough commentary about **Diogenes the Cynic** and **FinnAgain**. Drop it or take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/183 "2011-04-07T14:39:16Z")
Should be trivially easy to point out any errors I made, [just like I pointed out your numerous bits of fallacy and obfuscation.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13659956&postcount=179) Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/184 "2011-04-07T16:57:55Z")
I’m devastated to report that Dio has made me aware that I’m married to a terrible bigot. My husband once told me he never could have considered marrying me if I were a White Sox fan. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/185 "2011-04-07T18:58:43Z")
Well, if there is one thing that all rational people can agree on, it’s that we can’t leave something as important as marriage to something as bigoted as personal preferences for lifelong partners. Ideally we can have a national lottery established without much delay. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/186 "2011-04-07T18:59:35Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’m devastated to report that Dio has made me aware that I’m married to a terrible bigot. My husband once told me he never could have considered marrying me if I were a White Sox fan. ☹ Arguably that does meet the more-supported idea of bigotry we decided upon upthread, actually (being \*against \*a specific Other cultural group, rather than \*for \*a shared cultural group.) So it’s practically a consensus that he’s an anti-White-Sox-fan bigot–I hope you can live with the knowledge of such a glaring character flaw in your husband. :mad: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/187 "2011-04-07T19:10:47Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Arguably that does meet the more-supported idea of bigotry we decided upon upthread, actually (being \*against \*a specific Other cultural group, rather than \*for \*a shared cultural group.) So it’s practically a consensus that he’s an anti-White-Sox-fan bigot–I hope you can live with the knowledge of such a glaring character flaw in your husband. :mad: > 😃 It’s difficult, but I will try to soldier on, for the sake of the children. Although, you know, it’s not that he doesn’t like White Sox fans. Well, maybe it is a _little_ ;), but he came from a mixed marriage…mother a Cubs fan, dad a Sox fan…and he didn’t want to raise children in such a confusing environment. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/188 "2011-04-07T19:21:12Z")
Matzot for thought: How could you **love** someone in the first place if you were supposedly were too “racist” to marry them? Doesn’t that negate the actual “love” feeling you had in the first place? Or maybe…it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with one’s personal lifestyle choices! It doesn’t seem to me that the girl the OP was interested even got that far, so what gives? > [@](#): > > “If I love you in every way but won’t marry you because you aren’t of the same religion, color, or whatever, doesn’t that make me an elitist and a racist by definition?” (I should also disclose that I’m an atheist and practicing Jew and would never marry a non-Jew…anyway.) This whole thread is ridiculous. Jews aren’t a race. You can be Chinese and Jewish. You can be black and Jewish. Judaism has nothing to do with “race”. Heritage? Sure. Ethnicity? Yes. Shared culture, religion (for the most part), language, norms? Yup. Holidays? Yeah. Our own calendar? A (usually but not always) genuine affection for a sister country? Totally. A closed club? F no. Why do I keep seeing that word “race”? Luckily the “Zionism is racism” crap was stopped before it got any further, but people seem to have no scruples whatsoever their thinly veiled anti-Semitic rants. Oh yes, I _did_ just say that word. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/189 "2011-04-07T19:51:10Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Are you saying that no secular Jews are adamant about marrying only Jews? From other nationalities, I see that some secular people from those nationalities/ethnicities want to only marry within their group and are adamant about it, even though they are not religious. Guilt, man, guilt. We’re really good at that. Anyone with the slightest bit of religious training gets it. Before we got married my wife had a fantasy of a dual-religion ceremony, and went to talk to the rabbi at her university. He told her she was killing me by marrying me. So there went that idea. I’ve been married for 32 years and regret nothing, but even I feel a bit guilty about participating in the decline of a 3,000 year old culture. > [@](#): > > If there are secular Jews who are adamant about marrying only Jews, then are they “worse”/more bigoted than religious Jews who are adamant about marrying only Jews? I hope I’ve made it clear that I don’t consider anyone bad for desiring this, no more than they are bad for only wanting to marry a Star Trek fan or someone who loves to read or someone who has similar views about money. > [@](#): > > If no Jew, secular or religious, can be considered bigoted for being adamant about marrying only Jews, then why is this thread only focusing on the religious reasons? > > Why aren’t people also defending the secular Jews who feel this way. Keep in mind that most arguments in support of secular Jews being adamant about this carry over to secular people from any other nationality/ethnicity who feel similarly (Except of course “have been persecuted for centuries and suffered the Holocaust”) Huh? My town is amazingly diverse, and there are tons of parents of all races and cultures who want their kids to marry within their race and culture. My daughter has a Burmese friend whose mother wants her to marry a Burmese guy - but not a lot of choice in that department, even here. My wife’s mother was a bit religious, and I’m sure she feared for my soul though she was too polite to say anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/190 "2011-04-07T21:02:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Guilt, man, guilt. We’re really good at that. Anyone with the slightest bit of religious training gets it. Before we got married my wife had a fantasy of a dual-religion ceremony, and went to talk to the rabbi at her university. He told her she was killing me by marrying me. So there went that idea. > I’ve been married for 32 years and regret nothing, but even I feel a bit guilty about participating in the decline of a 3,000 year old culture. Haha, thumbs. 😛 Once upon a time when I was young and stupid, I married a non-Jewish man on a whim. My rabbi’s response? “At least your uterus is Jewish.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/191 "2011-04-08T19:59:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Speaking of which, the OP has yet to offer any justification for why he claim that “jews get a pass when it comes to racism” when in-group preference isn’t racist, a huge percent of Jews marry outside their faith/ethnicity, there is significant debate within the Jewish community itself as to what sort of stance it should have on intermarriage and inreach/outreach, and conversion puts paid to the claim that it’s “racist” or “elitist”. > > Substantiation or retraction would be ideal, sooner rather than later. It appears that it’s later, but since we’ve dispensed with nonsense about how the OP’s own words aren’t, in fact, his own words, maybe he can support his claims. Maybe, even, retract some of the sillier claims he’s made. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/192 "2011-04-13T13:49:55Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > “A person who is intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” I’m with FinnAgain, (and others,) on this. Not being willing to marry someone in no way equals being intolerant of their beliefs. > [@Blake](#): > > If I will not tolerate marriage to a person of a differing creed or belief, what am I? More mindful of those things that promote strong, lasting marriages and well adjusted, socially responsible children? Or, is E-Harmony a totally bigoted concept, and one of the most evil ideas in history? From the [eharmony website](http://www.eharmony.com/why) > [@](#): > > eHarmony does the matching for you based on 29 DimensionsTM of personality that are scientifically-based predictors of **long-term relationship success** … > > proven to predict **happier, healthier long-term relationships**. Hmm, I’m starting to see how this could be an evil conspiracy. Who are they to suggest I want a **happier** , **healthier** , or even a \*\*long-term \*\*relationship? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/193 "2011-04-13T14:24:41Z")
Jews were active in the Civil Rights movement. They usually vote Democrat, even though they are usually prosperous. I see nothing wrong with Jews preferring other Jews for marriage partners. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/194 "2011-04-13T16:37:52Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > This whole thread is ridiculous. Jews aren’t a race. You can be Chinese and Jewish. You can be black and Jewish. > > Judaism has nothing to do with “race”. Heritage? Sure. Ethnicity? Yes. FWIW, I’ve heard the precise phrase “the Jewish race” from Jews (yes, I believe they still accepted converts). It’s an unpopular construction at least presently and in this country because [it excludes Jews from whiteness](http://www.jdate.com/jmag/2010/12/walter-mosley-and-the-jewish-race/). But I don’t _believe_ in race as anything “but” culture and heritage and ethnicity–which covers an awful lot of ground! I don’t see that it makes any difference whether we call Jews a “race” or not; it’s misleading, but no more misleading that other usages of race terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/195 "2011-04-13T19:59:29Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > FWIW, I’ve heard the precise phrase “the Jewish race” from Jews (yes, I believe they still accepted converts). It’s an unpopular construction at least presently and in this country because [it excludes Jews from whiteness](http://www.jdate.com/jmag/2010/12/walter-mosley-and-the-jewish-race/). > > But I don’t _believe_ in race as anything “but” culture and heritage and ethnicity–which covers an awful lot of ground! I don’t see that it makes any difference whether we call Jews a “race” or not; it’s misleading, but no more misleading that other usages of race terminology. I don’t use racial terminology if I can help it, and I certainly don’t label a group a “race” that doesn’t label itself so. Some Jews misuse the term because they confuse “race” with “ethnicity” or “people”, but that doesn’t make it right. No Jewish person I know thinks of themselves as a “race”, yet I know some Jews who mark “other” on Census/questionnaires/etc because we still have that minority/not quite white status. I do that. I mark “other”. It’s not because I think Jews are a race. Like I’ve said before, that’s for the Mengeles of the world. I have pale skin and natural reddish hair, just like my dad. His parents were the stereotypical poor Irish drinking redheads. Here’s a photo of me last summer for reference: [http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/67512\_500702840560\_141457905560\_7423553\_654644\_n.jpg](http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/67512_500702840560_141457905560_7423553_654644_n.jpg) Mm-hmm, I look pretty white. While Jews in America have moved away from “non-white” status due to their relative successes, I reject the idea of “whiteness”. Ethnicity is more important than skin tone. My mom is darker and has a huge…nose. 😛 She passes for “Native American” (because of her father) at first glance. My mom’s mom’s family was Jewish and they converted. That makes me a halachic Jew, but I had no idea of this until a year or two after my conversion to Judaism. Weird. I was like, Mom! How was this not noticeable?! And she’s like, “Well, I just thought Nana’s Yiddish was German slang. What do I know? I went to Lutheran school!” :smack: So if it’s that easy to step out of your whiteness, I say screw it. 🙂 I think my mom sees herself as white. Here’s a very old photo of myself and a former boyfriend. Does this fellow look white to you? [http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/218079\_725930248222\_42111580\_37721029\_2662279\_n.jpg](http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/218079_725930248222_42111580_37721029_2662279_n.jpg) He’s a Parisian Jew. Now what?! I mark “Other” because this idea of race is social and psychological and many Jews still suffer for it. Saying “I’m white” implies that your “people” are not subjugated to any kind of bigoted practice, prejudices, ethnocentrism, etc. White is synonymous with dominant culture and power. Maybe if I were in Israel, I’d think of myself as white…no…wait…there I’d just be non-Orthodox. Hmm. 😉 So no, Jews aren’t _white_. But they aren’t a race, either - no more than the Irish or Italian or Norwegian. It sounds contradictory at the surface, but it is not. In Denver, Jews are everywhere and no one cares unless it’s Christmastime or you’re Chabad or something. Kentucky - err, I’d rather not find out. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/196 "2011-04-15T07:35:09Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Or maybe…it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with one’s personal lifestyle choices! It doesn’t seem to me that the girl the OP was interested even got that far, so what gives? I’m not sure what you are saying here, but I’ll take a stab at answering it. The girl in the OP and I were \*never \*on the road to marriage. We hadn’t even gone out on an official date. My point was, she liked me, made it clear that she liked me, but asked me if I was Jewish. When I said no, that’s when she said she could not marry a non-jew because of family pressures. Therefore, to her, dating was pointless because if we actually started to have real feelings for each other, and actually got to the point of discussing marriage, the whole thing would have been a waste of time. So why go out on that first date? From that perspective, it’s hard to argue. But it did make me stop and think about what she was saying to me. And I also don’t buy this nonsense that Jews can’t be elitists because they permit anyone to convert. I guess this is to comfort those that had a similar conversation that I had, but had invested a lot of time and emotion into the relationship and didn’t want it to end. So, if they were willing to convert to Judaism, the marriage could happen. WTF does that tell you? > [@CitizenPained](#): > > (I should also disclose that I’m an atheist and practicing Jew and would never marry a non-Jew…anyway.) This statement absolutely confuses/amazes me. How can you be a practicing Jew AND an atheist? Isn’t being a jew predicated on some religious tenets? What does being a Jew mean to you, exactly? You aren’t the only person on this board who self-identifies this way. Being a Jew and an atheist is the same as being a Christian and being an atheist, isn’t it? You say you wouldn’t marry a non-jew. That’s fine, but does the jew you would choose also have to be an atheist? Help me out here. So, you consider yourself a practicing jew but an atheist. What does that mean? You eat kosher? You bury a plate if meat and dairy happen to touch on the plate (or whatever rule that is)? You follow a subset or all tenets of Judaism except the belief in god? If you don’t believe in god, what forces you to follow and/or believe in any of the tenets? If you like, say, matza ball soup, that’s cool, but that doesn’t make you a jew. Being born to a jewish mother does, correct? So that’s it? You being jewish is like someone being say Italian. Is that how you equate the two? This has always confused me. I don’t understand how a jewish person can be an atheist and still maintain they are jewish. I hope you can help me understand this, I’m very interested to understand. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/197 "2011-04-15T08:02:58Z")
Practicing Jewish atheism is a whole 'nother conversation - I would be happy to have it here, but maybe mods would prefer another thread be started? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/198 "2011-04-15T10:39:02Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > You say you wouldn’t marry a non-jew. That’s fine, but does the jew you would choose also have to be an atheist? Also, if an atheist non-Jew wanted to marry her, would he have to convert to Judaism? But as an atheist, how would he convert? Just go through the religious ceremony of conversion? Would a Rabbi even convert an atheist non-Jew to Judaism? Does this all mean that if you are an atheist practicing Jew who would never marry a non-Jew, that there is no way for such a person to become Jewish and you are therefore excluding people based solely on their genetic makeup and/or ethnicity? If yes, then this is a totally different ballgame than “It’s because of my religion, and in any case you can convert if you want to” ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/199 "2011-04-15T10:42:25Z")
Reconstructionsit Judaism does not have a statement of faith as part of the conversion process. That branch, in particular, emphasizes the ethical and moral code aspects of Judaism and will accept conversions for people who find meaning in the Jewish interpretation and implementation through a decidedly Jewish point of view. I personally know non-Jews who converted this way who were atheists. As an athiest conservative Jew I married a non-Jew who is pretty much agnostic/atheist ex-Catholic. But in all respects he practices our family religion and no other. An ultra-religious Jew wouldn’t have worked for me in how I envisioned passing on my heritage and a practicing other religious person (such as an observant Christian) wouldn’t have either. An atheist who barred any religious wouldn’t have either. A Jewish person with similar beliefs as mine would have been an good match too. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/200 "2011-04-15T10:57:48Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > As an athiest conservative Jew… he practices our family religion How can you be atheist and also have a religion? Do you just mean your cultural practices? Or do you do everything that the religion says, without believing in God? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=11)