# why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370 "2011-04-06T06:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/281 "2011-04-17T04:35:18Z")
I will accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/282 "2011-04-17T04:38:38Z")
Please tell me where I’m commanded to believe in God. Follow God? Obey His laws? Sure. But believe He exists? Where does it say that? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/283 "2011-04-17T04:53:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So only Gentiles are commanded to believe in God? 😛 > **5. _Avodah Zarah_: Idolatry is forbidden: Man is commanded to believe in the One God alone and worship only God.** > **6. _Birchat HaShem_: Cursing the name of God is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting God, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.** Avodah Zarah concerns Jews living in Gentile nations. We are not to take up the religions or idols of others (like the Jew and the Christmas tree ;)) Being an atheist is not the same as engaging in idolatry - the physical worship of an item (or person in monotheism). Atheism is a rather new phenomenon. I was always taught that the commandment of _Birkat HaShem_ and not cursing God was essentially a way of outlawing _swearing an oath by God when you were telling a lie._ Also: Sorry,\*\* Argent Towers\*\*, we are right as hell. 😛 There are plenty of discussions in the Talmud about believing or feeling v. doing. You can perform mitzvot without believing in God - the\* wanting\* to do the deed is more important than the\* belief\* that you must because God said so. Mitzvot are opportunities to bring you ‘closer to God’, but in reality, mitzvot bring the Jewish people closer together. God doesn’t cook my Seder meal. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/284 "2011-04-17T05:33:27Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Please tell me where I’m commanded to believe in God. > > Follow God? > Obey His laws? > Sure. > > But believe He exists? Where does it say that? It’s like someone who belongs to the Invisible Pink Unicorn religion saying: Please tell me where I’m commanded to believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn . Follow the Invisible Pink Unicorn ? Obey Its laws? Sure. But believe It exists? Where does it say that? If you are following an entity that you believe does not exist and are obeying its laws, it doesn’t make sense, on multiple levels. One of those levels is that if there is no Invisible Pink Unicorn, the laws you are following are not “its” laws. For the laws to be “its” laws, the Invisible Pink Unicorn has to exist. If there was a group whose members believed that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, and had some rules they had to follow, and they believed that those rules are what the Invisible Pink Unicorn wants them to do, and you also wanted to be part of that group and follow those same rules because of the benefits that come from following those rules and being part of that group, but didn’t really believe that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, I would argue that you are qualitatively different from the ones that follow the same exact rules because they believe that they derive from the Invisible Pink Unicorn, versus you who follows those rules because of the benefits you see from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/285 "2011-04-17T05:38:15Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything Are these 613 commandments the same that are [listed here](http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm)? If so, isn’t the first one on the list \*\* 1. To know that G-d exists\*\* How can you claim to follow these 613 commandments if you don’t follow the above one? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/286 "2011-04-17T05:47:06Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > It’s like someone who belongs to the Invisible Pink Unicorn religion saying: > Please tell me where I’m commanded to believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn . > > Follow the Invisible Pink Unicorn ? > Obey Its laws? > Sure. > > But believe It exists? Where does it say that? > > If you are following an entity that you believe does not exist and are obeying its laws, it doesn’t make sense, on multiple levels. One of those levels is that if there is no Invisible Pink Unicorn, the laws you are following are not “its” laws. For the laws to be “its” laws, the Invisible Pink Unicorn has to exist. > > If there was a group whose members believed that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, and had some rules they had to follow, and they believed that those rules are what the Invisible Pink Unicorn wants them to do, and you also wanted to be part of that group and follow those same rules because of the benefits that come from following those rules and being part of that group, but didn’t really believe that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, I would argue that you are qualitatively different from the ones that follow the same exact rules because they believe that they derive from the Invisible Pink Unicorn, versus you who follows those rules because of the benefits you see from doing so. I don’t follow an entity. I (not stringently) follow a belief system based on the idea of such an entity. I’m really non committal when it comes to believing in God. Some days I’m more likely to believe than others, but mostly I just don’t give a damn. If you asked me, “Do you think God exists?” I’d say, “No, and I don’t care.” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/287 "2011-04-17T05:48:12Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Are these 613 commandments the same that are [listed here](http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm)? > > If so, isn’t the first one on the list > \*\* 1. To know that G-d exists\*\* > > \*\*How can you claim to follow these 613 commandments \*\*if you don’t follow the above one? I’m not an Orthodox Jew. 😕 I’ve said that over and over in this thread. Heck, some of my posts in this thread have been on Shabbat. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/288 "2011-04-17T05:49:23Z")
I hope this doesn’t come across as insulting or too simplistic, but, for those who believe that you can have a religion where no one in that religion believes that the rules derive from some supernatural entity, how is that religion different from a fraternity? In a fraternity, people got together and made some rules that members have to follow. Some of those rules look weird to outsiders, but for those who do follow those rules, they see long-lasting benefits in terms of camaraderie, social benefits, etc. In a religion where no one believes the rules derive from some supernatural entity, but they follow them because of the various benefits they derive from following them, how is that different from a fraternity? Are fraternities (or any social club with behavioral rules for its members) religions? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/289 "2011-04-17T05:50:23Z")
Think of it this way. My dog Spot is a god. Spot has laws. Spot tells me what these laws are. I follow “Spot’s laws”. I tell you to follow “Spot’s laws”. You follow “Spot’s laws” because you think they sound appropriate for humankind. You don’t think Spot is a god, though. Yet by proxy, you have become a Spottist. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/290 "2011-04-17T05:51:16Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m not an Orthodox Jew. 😕 I’ve said that over and over in this thread. Heck, some of my posts in this thread have been on Shabbat. The question was not directed at you. It was directed at **DocCathode** , who said “NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything”. It seems that at least one of those 613 commandments does require belief in something. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/291 "2011-04-17T05:52:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t follow an entity. You yourself said “Follow God? … Sure” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/292 "2011-04-17T05:54:32Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > I hope this doesn’t come across as insulting or too simplistic, but, for those who believe that you can have a religion where no one in that religion believes that the rules derive from some supernatural entity, how is that religion different from a fraternity? I don’t know. Ask Buddhists.\* > [@](#): > > In a fraternity, people got together and made some rules that members have to follow. Some of those rules look weird to outsiders, but for those who do follow those rules, they see long-lasting benefits in terms of camaraderie, social benefits, etc. Yup. Kind of like a government, political party, or other such entity that requires membership. > [@](#): > > In a religion where no one believes the rules derive from some supernatural entity, but they follow them because of the various benefits they derive from following them, how is that different from a fraternity? Is being a Buddhist being part of a fraternity? Not all religions are theistic. I addressed this somewhere, though maybe not this thread. > [@](#): > > Are fraternities (or any social club with behavioral rules for its members) religions? No, fraternities aren’t religions. Judaism isn’t a social club. But we do call ourselves a Tribe for a reason. \*I don’t mean to lump all Buddhists in the same category. I was just making a point that religion doesn’t require theism. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/293 "2011-04-17T05:55:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Think of it this way. > > My dog Spot is a god. > Spot has laws. > Spot tells me what these laws are. > I follow “Spot’s laws”. > I tell you to follow “Spot’s laws”. > You follow “Spot’s laws” because you think they sound appropriate for humankind. You don’t think Spot is a god, though. > Yet by proxy, you have become a Spottist. > > 😛 If you were one of those woo types who really thought that Spot is a god, I would bet that you would not like me publicly proclaiming that Spot is not a god, even if I followed all of Spot’s laws. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/294 "2011-04-17T05:56:24Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Are these 613 commandments the same that are [listed here](http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm)? > > If so, isn’t the first one on the list > \*\* 1. To know that G-d exists\*\* Look at the textual citations for that. Exodus 20:2. [ > [@](#): > > I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. ]([Exodus 20 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre](http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm)) . Deuteronomy 5:6. [ > [@](#): > > I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. ]([Deuteronomy 5 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre](http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0505.htm)) Note that these are quite different from “Thou must know God exists.” Now, I’m not arguing that there are contradictions within the Jewish religion, or how we choose to define membership, or anything else. Sure you can pick a set of religious beliefs apart. But Malthus has the right of it. People aren’t trying to explain them to you in order to convince you to accept them, but because those are what the beliefs are, and what they’re going to be, whether or not you accept them. Jews don’t have a long history of caring overly much about what gentiles think of our beliefs or our culture 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/295 "2011-04-17T05:56:43Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Are these 613 commandments the same that are [listed here](http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm)? > > If so, isn’t the first one on the list > \*\* 1. To know that G-d exists\*\* > > How can you claim to follow these 613 commandments if you don’t follow the above one? The way I see it, there are a few possibilities here. The most likely being that I either misread, or misremembered and was wrong. Still, looking at the list, the overwhelming majority ARE commands of actions not beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/296 "2011-04-17T05:57:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yup. Kind of like a government, political party, or other such entity that requires membership. Exactly. > [@](#): > > No, fraternities aren’t religions. Why not? > [@](#): > > Judaism isn’t a social club. Why? What is the essential thing that differentiates one group+its rules from another group+its rules, making one a religion and the other a social club? (assuming no supernatural beliefs in either group) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/297 "2011-04-17T05:58:10Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The most likely being that I either misread, or misremembered and was wrong. Actually, they seem to have heavily editorialized the actual text. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/298 "2011-04-17T05:59:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Actually, they seem to have heavily editorialized the actual text. And on review, I may not be wrong. Woo HOO! ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/299 "2011-04-17T06:00:44Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Still, looking at the list, the overwhelming majority ARE commands of actions not beliefs. It doesn’t matter what the overwhelming majority are. Even if there is a single commandment to “know that God exists”, people who are atheists cannot follow that, so these people cannot claim to follow all 613 commandments. (Of course, you may not need to follow all 613 commandments to be considered a Jew) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/300 "2011-04-17T06:02:01Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > You yourself said “Follow God? … Sure” I was talking about commandments. **I didn’t say I** followed **God**. It is commanded to follow God. But you cannot force someone to believe in something. You can only ask that they act accordingly. Maimonides may have tried to capture the [13Principles](http://www.mesora.org/13principles.html), but he doesn’t speak for everyone. God is a human construction (imho). So yes, in _that_ God I do believe in. God is not static. He has to adapt to people or He’d cease to exist. Like others have mentioned, there is no single Jewish view of God. Most Jews I know don’t spend a lot of time thinking about if God exists or not. It’s not a central issue like it is for Christians. Look, if you want to get personal and not just ask about the complexities and paradoxes of Jewish theology, I can tell you what God is. But again, there’s no single Jew that can speak for everyone when it comes to God. Or Judaism. Very few things are certain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=16)