# why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370 "2011-04-06T06:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/301 "2011-04-17T06:03:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > It doesn’t matter what the overwhelming majority are. Even if there is a single commandment to “know that God exists”, people who are atheists cannot follow that, so these people cannot claim to follow all 613 commandments. (Of course, you may not need to follow all 613 commandments to be considered a Jew) I don’t know of any atheist who claims to follow all 613 commandments. In fact, no one follows all 613 commandments. Only about 200 of those are still relevant today. _To know God_ means something different to Jews than it does to non-Jews, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/302 "2011-04-17T06:04:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > God is a human construction (imho). OK, given the above, in your opinion, what is the essential thing that differentiates one group+its rules from another group+its rules, making one a religion and the other a social club? (assuming no supernatural beliefs in either group) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/303 "2011-04-17T06:06:41Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > It doesn’t matter what the overwhelming majority are. Even if there is a single commandment to “know that God exists”, people who are atheists cannot follow that, so these people cannot claim to follow all 613 commandments. Are you not reading the thread? There is no such commandment to “know that God exists.” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/304 "2011-04-17T06:06:43Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > It doesn’t matter what the overwhelming majority are. Even if there is a single commandment to “know that God exists”, people who are atheists cannot follow that, so these people cannot claim to follow all 613 commandments. (Of course, you may not need to follow all 613 commandments to be considered a Jew) Indeed, you do not have to follow all 613 to be considered a Jew. The question of just who is and is not a Jew is a GD thread (a long and heated one at that) of its own. The obvious example here is Sigmund Freud. He was often hailed by Jewish groups as a celebrity Israelite. Freud said ’ I don’t understand it. All I’ve said about Judaism is to not deny that I was born a Jew.’ Freud was, last time I checked an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/305 "2011-04-17T06:15:28Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > The question was not directed at you. It was directed at **DocCathode** , who said “NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything”. It seems that at least one of those 613 commandments does require belief in something. Oh, sorry. _To know God exists_, as outlined by Rambam/Maimonides. > [@](#): > > EX. 20:2: \*\* I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. > \*\* > > Deut: > > _ **Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and observe to do them.** 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. 4 The LORD spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire— 5 I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare unto you the word of the LORD; for ye were afraid because of the fire, and went not up into the mount—saying:_ > > 5:6: \*\* I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.\*\* – is that what you meant? To know God exists is not the same as commanding belief in a supernatural power. You confuse Judaism with Christianity. You also have to understand the context. The Israelites, in creating for themselves a set of laws revolving around monotheism and community and a nationhood had to create a set of laws that _set them apart from everyone else_. Numero uno was monotheism (since Abraham) and the explicit banning of idols (as was done in Egypt). This required a faith in something you can’t see. How does this work? Numero dos on the agenda was creating a system in which people work for -and not against- each other. It’s noted throughout Biblical history that when Jews “turned away from God” (as in, each other), they fell. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/306 "2011-04-17T06:17:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Are you not reading the thread? > There is no such commandment to “know that God exists.” He’s talking about Rambam. 😕 So I guess you could say there’s a Talmudic law requiring you to know that God exists. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/307 "2011-04-17T06:21:59Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > OK, given the above, in your opinion, what is the essential thing that differentiates one group+its rules from another group+its rules, making one a religion and the other a social club? (assuming no supernatural beliefs in either group) Social clubs don’t dictate how you live your life. Social clubs (well…okay…DOAR excepted) don’t generally pass on from generation to generation. Social clubs don’t command you to teach your children. Social clubs are that – they’re social clubs. Judaism is a whole system based on nationhood. It is a…type of government, really. I feel like I’ve typed this 10,000 times…not that I don’t love discussing theology. 🙂 Religion is a type of philosophy. Philosophy is the study of problems. Religion generally aims to tackle social problems - or any problems that may arise with in, oh, I think we call it the state of nature in the West. Judaism isn’t a social club. It’s not like the men are hanging out at the Lodge every Friday night discussing their favorite brands of whiskey or some such while the women quilt in the next room over. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/308 "2011-04-17T06:23:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > He’s talking about Rambam. 😕 So I guess you could say there’s a Talmudic law requiring you to know that God exists. Eh… even when talking about Maimonides, we’re talking about his interpretation of things. While he’s certainly still revered as a sage, it’s significantly different from claiming that his interpretations are the actual commandments themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/309 "2011-04-17T06:24:33Z")
I don’t think the sages really considered the option of no god concept. But the point is though what one believes is just not much of a focus compared to what one does. Stick with that IPU analogy for a second - Jews do not refer to themselves by reference to the being that is worshiped; we refer to ourselves as the People of the Book. It is the Torah that matters and, as that story I referenced earlier tries to make clear, the Torah, The Law, is not in heaven. It is in our hands and up to us, each of us, to make sense of it as best we can. I would guess that even in the Orthodox community, someone who follows the Law and can discuss Talmud and Torah in detail, and who professes to not believe in God, would be considered a better Jew than someone who states belief but observes few of the Laws and knows not the texts. Look at it from the point of view of conversion - in Islam professing belief is really all it takes. Accepting Christ is key to becoming Christian. In Judaism there is no need to express a personal belief in order to convert - look at [this Orthodox conversion site](http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/becomingjewish.html) What does he go on about? To become Jewish you have to accept that the Torah tell us the rules, you have to become part of the community, and you have to study. No going on about belief. Getting a Rabbi, even an Orthodox one, to convert you does not require statements of belief either; it requires statements of commitments to follow the rules, to learn, and to be part of the community. It is hard for many Christians to make sense of I think because belief is so primary in Christianity. Belief (and therefore non-belief) just is not all that important in Judaism. Actions are. Being a good member of the community is. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/310 "2011-04-17T06:24:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Eh… even when talking about Maimonides, we’re talking about his interpretation of things. While he’s certainly still revered as a sage, it’s significantly different from claiming that his interpretations are the actual commandments themselves. Exactly. That’s why I posted the original verse from the Torah that he was commenting on. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/311 "2011-04-17T06:27:17Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Are fraternities (or any social club with behavioral rules for its members) religions? Many fraternities have ritual behaviors and rules that are strongly reminiscent of religions. As a member of both a fraternity and a religion, I’m happy to accept that it’s a distinction without a difference. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/312 "2011-04-17T06:41:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I would guess that even in the Orthodox community, someone who follows the Law and can discuss Talmud and Torah in detail, and who professes to not believe in God, who be considered a better Jew than someone who states belief but observes few of the Laws and knows not the texts. Yes, I agree! Judaism as we know it today has been shaped by Hillel. Jewish practice is pretty reflective the idea of _works, charity, honoring your neighbor_. Even amongst the Orthodox (who are known for shunning those who are less observant from their communities), doubt is inevitable. Even the atheist yet practicing Jew understands there is something larger in life than himself. To be an atheist (or agnostic or unconvinced) is not a slap in the face of Judaism. To turn your back on the Jewish people is a slap in the face. (I’m looking at you, Noam Chomsky.) ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/313 "2011-04-17T07:34:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yes, I agree! Judaism as we know it today has been shaped by Hillel. Jewish practice is pretty reflective the idea of _works, charity, honoring your neighbor_. If works are paramount, and not belief, why aren’t the works of people who believe in some other god, but follow Jewish practice (works, charity, honoring your neighbor) sufficient to still consider them Jews, but the works of atheists who follow Jewish practice (works, charity, honoring your neighbor) are sufficient to still consider them Jews? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/314 "2011-04-17T07:39:04Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If works are paramount, and not belief, why aren’t the works of people who believe in some other god, but follow Jewish practice (works, charity, honoring your neighbor) sufficient to still consider them Jews, but the works of atheists who follow Jewish practice (works, charity, honoring your neighbor) are sufficient to still consider them Jews? Because Jews say so. You ignored the fact that your claim that there was a commandment to believe in God wasn’t an actual commandment… Why are you ignoring that whether or not it makes any sense or if you personally disagree with it, Jews have decided that following a other God removes you from the Jewish people, but not believing in God does not? What’s your confusion here? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/315 "2011-04-17T07:46:20Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If works are paramount, and not belief, why aren’t the works of people who believe in some other god, but follow Jewish practice (works, charity, honoring your neighbor) sufficient to still consider them Jews, but the works of atheists who follow Jewish practice (works, charity, honoring your neighbor) are sufficient to still consider them Jews? I didn’t say belief was\* nothing\*. I just said Judaism tends to focus on\* works\*. Those are the things that are rewarded. Those are the things that “bring you closer to God”. Again, get some Orthodox Jews in here and we’d be sentenced to the Pit in four minutes. In answer to your question: Because we make the rules about who is part of the Jew Crew. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/316 "2011-04-17T08:35:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I didn’t say belief was\* nothing\*. I just said Judaism tends to focus on\* works\*. To quote **DocCathode** : [QUOTE=DocCathode] NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything. The commandments require us to do things- rest on the seventh day, give to charity, etc. They require us to not do things- no eating pork, no adultery etc. The commandments do not requires us to believe or think anything. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if you agree with him or not, but the above statement from **DocCathode** seems to imply that belief is _nothing_. > [@](#): > > Again, get some Orthodox Jews in here and we’d be sentenced to the Pit in four minutes. Out of curiosity, why? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/317 "2011-04-17T08:45:10Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Because we make the rules about who is part of the Jew Crew. Of _course_ that’s the case. But, when people in this thread postulate that the rule is “_works are paramount, not belief, that’s why atheists can be considered religious Jews_” and I show that the “works are paramount, not belief” should lead to the acceptance of people who believe in other gods, as long as they fulfill the works part of the Jewish religion, and then people say, “well, _we_ make the rules”, all I can deduce logically is that “works are paramount, not belief” is _not_ the rule you have in place. The rule you have in place is more like “you either believe in God or are an atheist, and you do the works”. So belief does play a role, which is why all the hand-wringing that “NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything” is clearly false (in terms of explaining who can be accepted as a religious Jew) Yes, you (the general you) of course can make up your own rules. But when you explain them to others, make sure you explain them accurately and don’t make up rules that you are clearly not using. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/318 "2011-04-17T08:55:36Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Of _course_ that’s the case. But, when people in this thread postulate that the rule is “_works are paramount, not belief, that’s why atheists can be considered religious Jews_” Atheists can be considered religious Jews because 1. Religion does not require deism 2. You do not have to believe in God to be a Jew > [@](#): > > and I show that the “works are paramount, not belief” should lead to the acceptance of people who believe in other gods, Belief in other gods makes you part of another religion. Who says we don’t accept non Jews? Accept them as what? Accept them a Jews? Of course not. But to infer that we generically don’t accept Gentiles is pandering to antisemitic rhetoric. > [@](#): > > as long as they fulfill the works part of the Jewish religion, and then people say, “well, _we_ make the rules”, all I can deduce logically is that “works are paramount, not belief” is _not_ the rule you have in place. I’m sorry you don’t understand the rules. Judaism focuses on works. This is true. However, you aren’t kicked out of the tribe for eating pork or not giving to charity. > [@](#): > > The rule you have in place is more like “you either believe in God or are an atheist, and you do the works”. > > So belief does play a role, which is why all the hand-wringing that “NONE, not one, of the 613 commandments in Judaism requires affirming that G-d exists or requires Jews to believe in anything” is clearly false (in terms of explaining who can be accepted as a religious Jew) Excuse me, but I can’t go round and round if you don’t get (or accept) certain points. Belief in God can play a role in Judaism without being a requirement. Obviously the belief in a deity has propelled most Jews for centuries. > [@](#): > > Yes, you (the general you) of course can make up your own rules. But when you explain them to others, make sure you explain them accurately and don’t make up rules that you are clearly not using. We aren’t. You’re a Jew if you convert (which has its own rules) or if you are born so. Period. We explained “the rules”. There is no _rule_ that says atheism makes you not Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/319 "2011-04-17T08:58:05Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > To quote **DocCathode** : > > I don’t know if you agree with him or not, but the above statement from **DocCathode** seems to imply that belief is _nothing_. > Out of curiosity, why? 1.) That’s not how I took it. 2.) Do you know what you get if you put four Jews in a telephone booth? 3.) Fifty five theories on God. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/320 "2011-04-17T10:07:10Z")
You can’t distill this down to a single litmus test for being Jewish or religious. It’s a complex religion with multiple priorities and foci. I do not think that the religion evolved with atheism in mind. It just so happens that much of what it means to be an observant Jew is consistent with being an atheist. While it may be a bit of a retrofit, but it’s been that way for many many years. Jewish philosophy has always sought to answer more modern problems from ancient scripture. Much of Jewish law and practice is a retrofit. It’s self contradictory, messy and complex like any multifaceted issue of philosophy involving millions of people over thousands of years tends to be. And it’s ok. As I have said before, our community accepts the inherent philosophical conflict and we atheist Jews find our place within the larger community. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=17)