# why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370 "2011-04-06T06:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/401 "2011-04-18T05:39:32Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Polerius](#): > > But these mandates don’t exist in a vacuum. The reason there is a mandate to not bow down to another god is because the person who wrote that mandate believed that this particular God existed. If this God doesn’t exist, which is what atheists believe, there is no one “there” to be jealous. > > Also, the fourth commandment says “for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation _of those who reject me_” Okay. I think you’re confusing Judaism’s “Ten Commandments” with a Charlton Heston movie. First of all, _all mitzvot are equal_. Second, you need to cite \*Jewish \*commandments. They can be found [here](http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/tencommands.htm). > [@](#): > > The Ten Commandments > > 1. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of slavery in Egypt. > 2. You shall have no other gods but me. > 3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. > 4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy. > 5. Honor your father and mother. > 6. You shall not murder. > 7. You shall not commit adultery. > 8. You shall not steal. > 9. You shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor. > 10. You shall not covet. Third, there are some theologists who will claim that every time Jews assimilate, fight each other, or move away from Jewish practice, their children suffer. That would fall under your definition of what our “fourth” commandment is. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that the phrase “of those who reject me” can apply equally to atheists and to people who believe in other gods. That’s what it seems to you. > [@](#): > > You can easily claim to strictly follow the above if you simply believe that some other god exists, if you (1) Don’t bow down to him, (2) Don’t make sacrifices to him and (3) Don’t make any molten version of him. I addressed potential closet Christians already. Any theistic religion that is not Judaism is just that - **not** Judaism. So you’d be an ethnic Jew that turned away from God and to another. But seriously? Who’d be a closet Christian? Since when has being a religious Jew outside of Israel ever been helpful? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/402 "2011-04-18T05:43:03Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > We’re not overly sensitive here. But seriously. Stop. How do you know what “we” are like? You’ve been on this forum for what, four days? Religion gets shit on here _all the time_. Anyone professing any spirituality gets shot down and mocked. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/403 "2011-04-18T05:46:10Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Except that they aren’t trying to join; they were already members. > > Messianic Jews were born to the tribe as much as anyone else. If they have come to believe and espouse something the tribe considers antithetical to its identity, the tribe is of course within its rights to _cast them out_. But it’s inaccurate to describe it as if they are outsiders with no connection trying to horn in somewhere they never belonged. **Plenty** of Messianic jews were never ethnic Jews to begin with. It’s also an anti-Jewish movement started by Evangelical Christians. Some Messianic jews may be born Jewish and allowed baal teshuva, but they’re still **Christians**. Yes I just little j’d that on purpose. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/404 "2011-04-18T05:47:42Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > How do you know what “we” are like? You’ve been on this forum for what, four days? Religion gets shit on here _all the time_. Anyone professing any spirituality gets shot down and mocked. I didn’t know you were a Jewish atheist? 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/405 "2011-04-18T06:03:13Z")
OK, sorry, I thought you were saying something else. Never mind that remark. I really am sorry if I’m coming off as being so hostile. Looking over my past posts, it seems that way. I’m sorry. It’s just that this topic gets me wound up because it relates to how I was raised. My parents raised me with a spiritually empty form of Judaism that was completely wrapped up in ritual that had no meaning, boring services that had no connection to real life, and a lot of reform and reconstruction type “Jews” who would make sarcastic commentary on the religion all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/406 "2011-04-18T06:10:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > OK, sorry, I thought you were saying something else. Never mind that remark. > > I really am sorry if I’m coming off as being so hostile. Looking over my past posts, it seems that way. I’m sorry. It’s just that this topic gets me wound up because it relates to how I was raised. My parents raised me with a spiritually empty form of Judaism that was completely wrapped up in ritual that had no meaning, boring services that had no connection to real life, and a lot of reform and reconstruction type “Jews” who would make sarcastic commentary on the religion all the time. Well, I’m sorry for your experience. Like I said in my personal blab, I think different sects have their purpose. Are you a Christian now? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/407 "2011-04-18T06:17:53Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Are you a Christian now? :dubious: No, he’s Jewish, he just believes in the divinity of Jesus. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/408 "2011-04-18T06:21:16Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > No, he’s Jewish, he just believes in the divinity of Jesus. So he’s Christian. I see. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/409 "2011-04-18T06:21:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Are you a Christian now? :dubious: No. I’m not part of any organized religion. I guess I’m a “deist” though. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/410 "2011-04-18T06:26:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > No. I’m not part of any organized religion. I guess I’m a “deist” though. I’m all kinds of confused. What deity do you believe in? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/411 "2011-04-18T06:28:25Z")
[Deism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism) I can’t really classify my spiritual beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/412 "2011-04-18T06:34:06Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Deism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism) > > I can’t really classify my spiritual beliefs. Hmm…that’s not so antithetical to many modern sects of Judaism. Intellectualism has always been in Judaism. So has God. If you ever want to, many a shul or chavurah would love to have you.\* I like the practice and academia of Conservative synagogues, but no one cares if I drive on Saturday. \*as long as you don’t think Jesus to be God ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/413 "2011-04-18T06:40:02Z")
My family was in a Chavurah (sp? Never actually seen that word written out) with three other families when I was a kid up until a few years ago. But they stopped inviting us to stuff after my parents split up, not right away but gradually. As a kid, I always really enjoyed dinners and holidays with these people (and it introduced me to drinking [wine] at a pretty young age, which I think was a good thing because I learned moderation.) But I haven’t been to a gathering with them in years. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/414 "2011-04-18T06:48:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > LOL. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. > > Why refrain from pork? If you don’t believe there’s a holy basis for your religious tenets, why obey seemingly arbirtary ones like “don’t eat pork”? When you say “mostly practicing,” what is that even supposed to mean? What is it that you’re practicing? > > I abandoned the Jewish religion and culture long ago because my parents were people exactly like **you**. They had **no true principles of faith at all** , and we never had a single talk about spirituality. It was just “we do this because we’re supposed to. Because we’re Jews.” I had to memorize a bunch of Hebrew that I didn’t understand for my Bar Mitzvah which was a meaningless farce without any real spiritual underpinning. When I found some Christian literature at one point in high school and was interested in it, my parents were deeply upset at the idea that I could ever abandon “Judaism.” Why? \*\*You \*\*never gave me any kind of spiritual sustenance at all. \*\*Your \*\*judaism was all a put-on. It’s funny, they would never in a million years have been upset if I declared that I didn’t believe in God. But the idea of “leaving the religion” upset them so much. > > I define my spiritual beliefs on my own terms. Nobody else’s . But I make no pretensions that my beliefs are any form of “Judaism.” I just found this post and I strongly resent it. :o I didn’t do anything to **you** and **you** have no idea what Judaism looks like in **my** home. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/415 "2011-04-18T06:49:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > My family was in a Chavurah (sp? Never actually seen that word written out) with three other families when I was a kid up until a few years ago. But they stopped inviting us to stuff after my parents split up, not right away but gradually. As a kid, I always really enjoyed dinners and holidays with these people (and it introduced me to drinking [wine] at a pretty young age, which I think was a good thing because I learned moderation.) But I haven’t been to a gathering with them in years. God is in everything. Go and enjoy the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/416 "2011-04-18T06:49:56Z")
OK, well, since I made that post, I think it’s pretty obvious that your form of Judaism, though atheist, is still significantly more observant than my parents. So don’t take that personally. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/417 "2011-04-18T07:01:04Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If you proclaim “I believe in Zeus” you are violating “Thou shalt have no other god before me”, which is the second commandment, and so you can’t be a religious Jew. You can believe in the existence of other gods, so long as you aren’t following them. The reason why Christianity is problematic is because Christianity makes claims on the \*\*Jewish \*\*God. Believing in the existence of Zeus is _not_ in violation of having other gods if you do not follow Zeus. Believing in Jesus is in violation of having other gods because 1) _Jesus negates the definition of HaShem_ and 2) you are worshiping an image. The Israelites acknowledged other gods - they called them false gods. Jesus was a false prophet who claimed to be God in the flesh. I may have missed the nuances of what you said there – is that what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/418 "2011-04-18T07:02:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > OK, well, since I made that post, I think it’s pretty obvious that your form of Judaism, though atheist, is still significantly more observant than my parents. So don’t take that personally. 😃 It is not about level of observance. It is the meaning you put behind it! ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/419 "2011-04-18T08:48:47Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Thanks for attempting to explain - although I think the heart of your explanation is that since the majority of Jews supposedly won’t accept a “Jewish Christian,” that’s why you can’t be one. Circular reasoning, in other words. I’m having serious trouble understanding why “circular reasoning” is an issue here (with the three-legged dog club or anything else). To make another analogy, the definition of a US citizen is someone who the US government has decided is a citizen. That’s not circular reasoning, that’s how you decide who is in your group. “Jews are who Jewish people say are Jews” is a tautology if it’s anything, but I don’t get the “circular reasoning” claim. It’s not an argument _for_ anything - it’s just a definition! > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I guess I’m just really sick of having people shit all over me when I say that, when I look out across the ocean or look at the structure of some plant’s leaves or see photos of galaxies in space, I think there has to be a supreme architect of it all, some divine and intelligent force - maybe one far beyond our understanding or any kind of label, but still something. And people tell me what a fucking naive, childish, ignorant, backwards moron I must be for holding a belief like this (that there is a _reason_ for the beauty of the universe). This is really beautifully put. What this subconversation has highlighted to me is that people don’t really have a choice in what we believe. Just like you believe “there has to be a supreme architect”, and it doesn’t sound like you’re able to change that belief even if you wanted to, some of us Just Don’t, and can’t change that belief if we tried. What we can change, and choose, is our actions. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And then I see people claiming membership in a religion - not a culture but an actual religion - and then they tell me that they’ve stripped out all the divinity of the religion, all of the belief in a higher power, but they still believe they’re “practicing” the religion. To me these individuals want to have the best of both worlds. They want to be able to get the intellectual and social cachet of claiming atheism, and they want to get whatever personal fulfillment they get from practicing the tenets of a religion (but without any divine reason for doing so.) And I resent it. I’m sorry you feel resentful that atheist/non-theist Jewish people seem to get to have it all - and to be honest, we do. Not the “social cachet” of atheism, which I think is likely a grass-is-greener fantasy, but yes, we do get to both participate in meaningful spiritual practice, and do it as part of a community that accepts and engages with our non-theist beliefs. And the great thing about Judaism is that that option is available to lots of people, not only non-theists. Your non-specific deism and desire for meaningful spirituality is absolutely on the Jewish spectrum (and I suspect is much more mainstream than non-theism!). I think we can all agree that mocking rituals, as you say your family did, is _not_ a good way of creating spirituality or religious meaning. But as you’ve noted (thank you!), most non-theist Jewish people in this thread have been describing the opposite: we participate in rituals and Jewish practice because we do find them deeply meaningful. The posts on [page 5 of this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=603574&page=5) represent that well. I think this speaks extremely well of the rituals and the religious structure of progressive Judaism: it creates a compelling and meaningful “spirituality” and philosophy that we choose to follow because we find it genuinely rewarding as itself, not because we feel we have to or will be punished if we don’t. It stands up on its own. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/420 "2011-04-18T09:08:29Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think there has to be a supreme architect of it all, some divine and intelligent force - maybe one far beyond our understanding or any kind of label, but still something. And people tell me what a fucking naive, childish, ignorant, backwards moron I must be for holding a belief like this (that there is a _reason_ for the beauty of the universe). I’m certain there _is_ some “reason” for the universe, but humans–at least at this point in time–have no way of knowing “why” the universe exists (the _how_ we have started to understand a little bit, but not the _why_). And you think that gives you license to make shit up out of whole cloth? Not if you expect to be taking seriously. I myself have no problem with not knowing “why” because I realize that–short of making something up (and/or deceiving myself), and pretending that I understand the deepest, most unknowable mysteries of the Cosmos–there is no possible way I could know this information. But you know the answers, right? Because the universe is beautiful that explains how it came to be? Cosmogenesis by aesthetics? That’s just a wee bit flimsy, don’t you think? It is mind-boggling to me that people have the nerve to assert they know without a doubt both the “how” _and_ the “why” of the universe. The arrogance of their “special knowledge” is bad enough, but it becomes comical and sadly pathetic that this “special knowledge” they smugly believe in is patently ridiculous and nonsensical. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And then I see people claiming membership in a religion - not a culture but an actual religion - and then they tell me that they’ve stripped out all the divinity of the religion, all of the belief in a higher power, but they still believe they’re “practicing” the religion. Do you understand that there are religions that don’t feel the need to bow down to a Christ-like figure? That these very religions might have no need for “divinity” or “higher power”? That some religions are not Christ worshiping? > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > To me these individuals want to have the best of both worlds. They want to be able to get the intellectual and social cachet of claiming atheism, and they want to get whatever personal fulfillment they get from practicing the tenets of a religion (but without any divine reason for doing so.) And I resent it. Again–is the divine always necessary in all religions? Further, it is rather a fair-weather Atheist who holds his/her beliefs merely for social cachet and compelling cocktail-party conversation, wouldn’t you say? Are you a Theist just to impress chicks? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=22)