# why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370 "2011-04-06T06:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/501 "2011-04-20T22:19:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Again – I’m questioning the claim that most of the people claiming to be “converted Jews” are, in fact, \*not \*converted Jews (or ex-Jews, or Apostates, or whatever you prefer) but persons fabricating their personal histories. That’s the claim that people seem to be making here, and I am asking for support for that claim. > > \*\*\*That’s the sum total of what I’m asking about. Nothing else. \*\*\* Way I’d put it is this: 1. Most of the membership of such groups are not, in fact “converted Jews” at all. This isn’t my claim - it is simply a fact. Cite: see page 247 of _Evangelizing the chosen people: missions to the Jews in America, 1880-2000_: > **[Evangelizing the Chosen People](https://books.google.ca/books?id=r3hCgIZB790C&pg=PA247&lpg=PA247&dq=%22percentage%2Bof%2Bjews%22%2B%22messianic%2Bjews%22&source=bl&ots=JwRWOO_f72&sig=I8plux6jwFUzAoG2BnVXxaQXs1o&hl=en&ei=iFmvTaKyL9G78gOixryQDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result)** > > With this book, Yaakov Ariel offers the first comprehensive history of Protestant evangelization of Jews in America to the present day. Based on unprecedented research in missionary archives as well as Jewish writings, the book analyzes the theology... 1. The “testimonials” claiming to be from “converted Jews” are, in at least some cases, simply fraudulent. That much, I’ve proved. 2. These groups are funded by Christian churches, and their leadership is, in the case of Jews for Jesus, in the hands of an “ethnic Christian”. None of which prevents you from having met actual, live converts (which no-one has claimed don’t exist). What it does, is goes to show that these are not “Jewish” congregations at all - they are Christian congregations which imitate or mimic some aspects of Judaism, purely for the purpose of converting Jews - and which ironically enough attract more Christians than “ethnic Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/502 "2011-04-20T22:22:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’m afraid that I am under contract to both the Illuminati and the Mossad “until the last gentile is ritually sacrificed and their blood used to make mortar and their bones used to make the bricks that will be used to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount.” > As such, I am afraid I must refuse. In that case, I’m going to take everything you say and create a new religion to enact revenge. :o ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/503 "2011-04-20T23:50:58Z")
Man. I guess I was asking for it by posting in a thread with an inflammatory title, and I probably should have made it clear my question had nothing to do with the rest of the thread, but I’ve never seen this much vitriol unleashed for daring to ask for a cite. But finally, at last we do have some, and I thank you. I am now persuaded by the evidence that a large percentage of people attending Messianic Jewish congregations – probably the majority – are not, in fact, ethnically Jewish. I did not know this previously. I have been given cites and I have been informed. See how easy that was? No need to be nasty or imply anti-semitism or any of that. Facts and logic work on me. Angry screaming not so much. Unfortunately, while ya’ll have given me some useful information, I already knew that there were some gentiles that hung out with Messianic Christian groups. I’ve met some of them (which I mentioned in one of my first posts). I did not know they made up that much of the congregations, and for making me aware of that, again I thank you. Except here’s the thing: that wasn’t what I was asking. A gentile who goes to a Messianic Jewish meeting, or gives them money – or even sits on a board of a Messianic Jewish organization – is not necessarily claiming that he personally has any claim to Jewish ancestry. I’m well aware that not everyone attending a Messianic Jewish service has any connection to Judaism at all – I’m aware of it because, as mentioned, I’ve done it. And at no point did I ever make any false claims about my ethnic heritage. If I’d succeded in getting Messianic Jewish Girl to go out with and marry me, and she insisted that we go to a Messianic Jewish church, I might go every week. And sitting next to me might be Crazy Larry, also with no ethnic Jewish heritage, but attending because he likes it more than the churches he grew up in. Again, Larry and I both freely acknowledge we are 100% gentile. So while the fact that most Messianic Jewish congregations have a such a high percentage of ethnic gentiles is somewhat surprising to me, it doesn’t address the question I have been asking for the last day. To repeat: > [@](#): > > I’m questioning the claim that most of the people claiming to be “converted Jews” are, in fact, not converted Jews (or ex-Jews, or Apostates, or whatever you prefer) but persons fabricating their personal histories. That’s the claim that people seem to be making here, and I am asking for support for that claim. That’s it. I don’t know how to be clearer. And Finn, since you’re trying to shift the burden to me and ask me to prove a negative, I ask again, sincerely: What possible evidence could I provide to indicate that most people making the claim of Jewish ethnicity are _not_ lying? That’s not a rhetorical question. Again, this is the kind of evidence that would begin to falsify my position. Accounts of one of these posers accidentally revealing that he’s actually not of Jewish ancestry Someone investigating that obnoxious new guy at temple and revealing that he’s really not of Jewish ancestry Accounts of frauds coming clean about how he was only pretending to be Jewish Any journalists or sociologists studying this widespread phenomenon AFAICT, you’re saying this kind of impersonation is common, but after sincerely looking online, I don’t see any sign of it. Can you even give me a few anecdotes? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/504 "2011-04-21T00:23:18Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I’ve never seen this much vitriol unleashed for daring to ask for a cite. Pointing out that your argument is based on logical fallacies is hardly beyond the pale. The whole point is that you did not require a cite to prove a negative, as, at best, the default assumption should have been that you couldn’t estimate the truth value of certain claims… and given the fact that they come from known liars, that should have meant that the burden of proof was even more strongly against them. You should also be able to understand _why_ “Messianic Jewish” organizations are so offensive to actual Jews. And even if you can’t, you should be able to understand _that_ they are, and act accordingly. > [@furt](#): > > I’m questioning the claim that most of the people claiming to be “converted Jews” are, in fact, not converted Jews (or ex-Jews, or Apostates, or whatever you prefer) but persons fabricating their personal histories. That’s the claim that people seem to be making here, and I am asking for support for that claim. The point is, again, that you don’t need a reason to doubt their claims, you need a reason to believe them. Especially since, at best, we’re dealing with organizations that are engaged in deception (there’s a reason that they call themselves “Messianic Jewish Temples” and not “Christian congregations that would like to invite some Jews to come on by and hear the Gospel.” And, also as pointed out, at least one of the “testimonials” is fraudulent. Why assume, as a default, that the others aren’t (even those that also seem ‘off’)? As Malthus cited, for example, Brickner claims to be a["fifth-generational Jewish believer in Jesus."](http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/a_tenuous_claim_as_a_jew_for_jesus_20060331) This claim is so laughably absurd that it only passes muster among those who want to be convinced. Jews simply do not maintain their identity if, for a century+, they worship Jesus as Christ, marry Christians, and raise their children to worship Jesus. It’s in the realm of science fiction. > [@furt](#): > > And Finn, since you’re trying to shift the burden to me and ask me to prove a negative You’re the one who’s trying to shift the burden and ask people to prove a negative. That’s what “let’s assume these are true, and prove that they are not” _means._ I’m pointing out that you’re attempting to shift the burden of proof and asking others to prove a negative. In the absence of a reason to come to a conclusion, the proper stance is that the situation is indeterminate. When dealing with organizations that are known liars, generally the null hypothesis is that their claims are to be taken as fictional unless the null hypothesis is falsified. > [@furt](#): > > What possible evidence could I provide to indicate that most people making the claim of Jewish ethnicity are _not_ lying? That’s not a rhetorical question. Again, before I answer, I’d like to point out that you apparently view this as nearly impossible, but you’re demanding that sans proof for your claims that they’re being honest, others provide that nearly-unreachable level of proof to show that they aren’t being accurate. That being said, you can, like they did with Brickner, simply ask him in order to see if their story is at all credible. In any case, you treat the testimony of people who you’re able to interact with and whose emotional cues you can judge (and whose stories you can directly check) differently from functionally anonymous internet claims. > [@furt](#): > > Accounts of one of these posers accidentally revealing that he’s actually not of Jewish ancestry Check Malthus’ link about Brickner. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/505 "2011-04-21T01:41:27Z")
> [@furt](#): > > See how easy that was? No need to be nasty or imply anti-semitism or any of that. Facts and logic work on me. Angry screaming not so much. First…no one here is screaming. Rolling eyes? Maybe. But we are addressing your points. Second. If you think your claims of Jews being a race and having some weird psychic genetic connection to eachother isn’t a little bit sketchy…I can’t help you. That’s how you feel. I _personally_ that that is an antisemitic viewpoint (b/c it fits the definition), but that’s one of your very many views about 10,000 different things in life. No one is calling you a virulent antisemitic. I don’t agree with Democrats on inheritance taxes, but that does not make me a Republican. Easy on the smokescreens. If you do not want to address what I said, then don’t address it. Easy. If you dismiss it not once but twice, then it does appear as though you are invalidating everything I say and appear to have xyz opinions about Jews and race. That’s how it _looks_. You don’t have to agree with my opinion. But don’t state that I was making erroneous claims unless you please back it up. It makes me look dishonest. We don’t call people liars here. Thanks. (: No one is screaming. 😕 FINALLY: 1. I’m a registered Democrat. I have been since my 18th birthday. 2. I keep telling Republicans I am voting for them and I hang out with them all the time. 3. I’m not really outwardly lying about affiliation with Democrats…I’m just indirectly lying. Power of suggestion. or, you could argue: 1. There’s an organization that is designed to defraud people. 2. I don’t work for them, but I volunteer all the time. I look like one of those people they’re trying to defraud. 3. I’m indirectly supporting an organization that defrauds people by _knowingly being a pawn_. or, you could argue: 1. Most Messianic Jews are Christians. That’s what we said and dems de fax. They claim to go to a synagogue, but that is a **lie**. Suggesting that you go to a synagogue is implying you are Jewish. Again. _Indirect lie._ 2. Some of us have seen people pass themselves off as Messianic Jews. 3. It’s been proven that tactics used to convert Jews are to disguise yourself as a Jew at first. 4. Claiming to be part of something you’re not is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/506 "2011-04-21T02:57:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The point is, again, that you don’t need a reason to doubt their claims, you need a reason to believe them. Especially since, at best, we’re dealing with organizations that are engaged in deception Sorry, I find assuming that all people are lying until they prove otherwise a difficult way to go through life. And as I’ve said, we’re not talking about “organizations,” we’re talking about actual people, several of whom I know personally. Living humans whose houses I’ve been to, whose families I’ve met and one of whom I recently defriended on Facebook because of all the damn Farmville requests. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have more evidence of their Jewish ancestry than I do of yours. Now if you want me to believe that my personal experience with the Messianic Jewish community is far from the ordinary, and that in fact most of the people claiming Jewish lineage are straight-up faking the whole damn thing, I need more than assertions. > [@](#): > > As Malthus cited, for example, Brickner I meant to mention this earlier. This does seem to be a guy fuzzing the edges a bit. He was raised as a Jew, and was a Jew under Reform Judaism, but under Conservative and Orthodox Judaism, he wouldn’t be. So we’ll count that as one strike. > [@](#): > > This claim is so laughably absurd that it only passes muster among those who want to be convinced. Jews simply do not maintain their identity if, for a century+, they worship Jesus as Christ, marry Christians, and raise their children to worship Jesus. It’s in the realm of science fiction. It seems unlikely to me, too. Of course, the girl I knew in college was born to a Messianic Jewish mother (and father), married a MJ guy, and has now has given birth to kids, so there’s that. > [@](#): > > You’re the one who’s trying to shift the burden and ask people to prove a negative. No, I’m asking you to prove a _positive_. A few more cases like Brickner would be helpful. Even better would be some credible source that mentions this supposedly widespread phenomena. If someone claims that they are a faith healer, I am skeptical because I have never seen one personally, and because many faith healers have been shown to be phonies. If someone claims that they are or were a Satanist, I am skeptical because I have never met one personally, and many claims of satanism have been shown to be false. ([e.g.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Warnke)) If someone claims that they are a Jewish convert to Christianity, I am \*not \*skeptical because I have _have_ seen several personally, and as far as I know there have _not_ been large numbers of them shown to be phonies. If you know otherwise, _show_ me. Don’t tell, show. > [@](#): > > Again, before I answer, I’d like to point out that you apparently view this as nearly impossible, but you’re demanding that sans proof for your claims that they’re being honest, others provide that nearly-unreachable level of proof to show that they aren’t being accurate. Again – I have been to their houses. I ate their food. I met their relatives. Shit, I listened to household arguments about their conversion. Was the whole thing some sort of staged act … and if so, for whose benefit? They were Gentiles pretending to be Jewish converts, while their relatives (presumably also Gentiles) were pretending to be Jewish non-converts … why, exactly? Was it all some sort of elaborate performance art for my benefit? Sorry, there is zero chance you’ll convince me that my college freinds were phonies; which is fine because I’m not asking you to. I’m asking you to give evidence that it is common for _other_ people – anyone, anywhere, anytime – to feign Judaism for purposes of prostelyzation. I looked earlier and found nothing, but since you’re so confident, I’m asking you for your source of knowledge. Have you, personally, ever met someone who was pretending to have Jewish ancestry in order to convert people? Has anyone you know ever met such a person? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/507 "2011-04-21T03:01:22Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Second. If you think your claims of Jews being a race and having some weird psychic genetic connection to each other isn’t a little bit sketchy… I have said nothing of the kind. Zilch, zero. You’re either confusing me with someone else or else making things up. I didn’t say it, don’t think it, and find it offensive. I invite **Finn** and **Malthus** to comment on this. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/508 "2011-04-21T03:08:55Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. I don’t know where that is > 2. That isn’t the question, anyway. “Jews for Jesus,” as an organization may well be led by Gentiles,\*\* but unless those leaders are themselves claiming to be Jews, it’s a moot point. \*\* > > Five minutes Googling finds these: > > [http://www.menorah.org/salv.html](http://www.menorah.org/salv.html) > [Profiles of Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua](http://www.messianicassociation.org/bios.htm) > [http://www.jerusalemvision.com/Main\_files/PersonalTestimony.htm](http://www.jerusalemvision.com/Main_files/PersonalTestimony.htm) > [http://www.wordofmessiah.org/about-sam.html](http://www.wordofmessiah.org/about-sam.html) > [Webs.com has been shut down: Find out more](http://shmaministries.vpweb.com/Jewish-.html) > Are they all liars? Again, they may be ex-Jews, or outcasts, or infidels, or whatever. But acting as if they have no more claim to Jewishness than I do is misleading. The point is not moot. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/509 "2011-04-21T03:19:15Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, I find assuming that all people are lying until they prove otherwise a difficult way to go through life. Oh come on. What I just said, and what you just quoted and directly responded to, was: > [@me](#): > > The point is, again, that you don’t need a reason to doubt their claims, you need a reason to believe them. Especially since, at best, we’re dealing with organizations that are engaged in deception Do you honestly not see a difference between “all people” and “organizations that are engaged in deception”? Would you, for instance, accept a claim from The Discovery Institute about evolution without proof? We are talking about organizations. I’ve drawn a clear distinction between the published effectively-anonymous “testimonies” that are posted by those organizations online, and people who you can meet in person and talk to. > [@furt](#): > > Now if you want me to believe that my personal experience with the Messianic Jewish community is far from the ordinary This is not an “assertion”. This is the substance of the Fallacy of Anecdote. > [@furt](#): > > No, I’m asking you to prove a _positive_. Italics doesn’t make it true. Your claim is that their statements, including the effectively-anonymous online claims you’ve provided, should be taken at face value. And you’re demanding that people prove a negative by showing otherwise. Except the organizations are systemically and deliberately dishonest and deceitful, and Malthus has already pointed out that one of the “testimonies” is a rather blatant fiction. Others ping real Jews’ bullshit dectors for a variety of reasons. > [@furt](#): > > Again – I have been to their houses. > [@me](#): > > That being said, you can, like they did with Brickner, simply ask him in order to see if their story is at all credible. In any case, you treat the testimony of people who you’re able to interact with and whose emotional cues you can judge (and whose stories you can directly check) differently from functionally anonymous internet claims. Nobody, at all, has claimed that there are _no_ Jews who were converted by the “Messianic Jews” movement. We’re not saying that none of them exist. Because, obviously, 100% of their converts will be Jewish, because they _only_ convert Jews. > [@furt](#): > > I’m asking you to give evidence that it is common for _other_ people – anyone, anywhere, anytime – to feign Judaism for purposes of prostelyzation. I looked earlier and found nothing - One of the cites that you, yourself, provided featured a Christian pretending to be a “Reformed” Jew who thought that Jews were the majority religion in his country, evidently up to the point where he entered high school. \* ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/510 "2011-04-21T04:04:19Z")
Another example, Brickner refers to his group as “Messianic Jews” when he’s trying to convert Jews, but what does he refer to them as when he’s addressing Christians? [ > [@](#): > > “I guess that sets us and Jesus in direct contradiction to the document,” continues Brickner. "This is an attack on Jews for Jesus and other Christian groups who hold to the uniqueness of Christ. ]([http://jfjonline.org/pub/other/press\_releases/020819\_catholic.htm](http://jfjonline.org/pub/other/press_releases/020819_catholic.htm)) And, fine, here’s other bits of “testimony”. [ > [@](#): > > he realized his Jewishness wasn’t just some accident of nature, but that God had a plan and purpose, not only for the Jewish people as a whole, but for Sam personally. ]([http://www.wordofmessiah.org/about-sam.html](http://www.wordofmessiah.org/about-sam.html)) An Orthodox Jew has never heard of Tikun Olam? He isn’t aware of God’s covenant with the Jewish people, or that theologically being Jewish is not “some accident of nature” but that we have been Chosen to accept the burden of The Law? > [@](#): > > As Sam looked at some Old Testament prophecies, they seemed to point to Jesus. An Orthodox Jew wouldn’t know that all the “prophecies that seem to point to Jesus” are, uniformly, mistranslated, massaged within an inch of their lives, or taken wildly out of context? An Orthodox Jew is, in fact, totally ignorant of what being the Moshiach actually means in Jewish theology? At best, there’s something extremely fishy going on. At best. How about another? [ > [@](#): > > European Jews have seldom enjoyed complete freedom, but there was no hint of the approaching holocaust while I was growing up in a tiny forest village near Chelm, Poland. ]([Rachmiel Frydland - Why Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah](http://www.messianicassociation.org/bio-frydland.htm)) No hint… in Poland a country that, _after the Holocaust_ saw roving gangs of Poles set about murdering Jews. [ > [@](#): > > In 1918, Poland became a sovereign state. Following Poland’s rebirth, a reign of terror against the Jews began. Jews were massacred in pogroms by Poles who associated Trotsky and the Bolshevik revolution with Jewry > […] > Economic conditions declined for Polish Jews during the inter-war years. Jews were not allowed to work in the civil service, few were public school teachers, almost no Jews were railroad workers and no Jews worked in state-controlled banks or state-run monopolies (i.e. the tobacco industry). Legislation was enacted forcing citizens to rest on Sunday, ruining Jewish commerce that was closed on Saturday. Their economic downfall was accompanied by a rise of anti-Semitism. In the late 1930’s a new wave of pogroms befell the community and anti-Jewish boycotts were enacted. ]([Poland Virtual Jewish History Tour](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Poland.html)) No hints, near Chelm, Poland. [ > [@](#): > > My young friend, Shneiur Wasserman, the well known writer and poet from Chelm, states in his memoirs about the destruction of Chelm in Morgn Freiheit [Morning Freedom] the following important episode: - During the Polish-Bolshevik War, when the Polish Halertchikes [soldiers under the command of General Jozek Haller during and after the First World War, who were widely reported to be anti-Semitic and perpetrators of violence against Jews], arrived in Chelm, they would often attack the Jews and rip their beards. A pogrom against the Jews in Chelm also broke out at that time in which approximately 100 Jews were wounded and one Jew was killed. Many houses and shops had a pogrom against them. ]([http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/chelm/che295.html](http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/chelm/che295.html)) [ > [@But wait](#): > > After the meeting, I talked with the preacher. He read several passages from the Old Testament that he said were prophecies about the long awaited Messiah of Israel. I could give different interpretations for all but one of the passages. Daniel 9:24-26 ]([Rachmiel Frydland - Why Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah](http://www.messianicassociation.org/bio-frydland.htm)) This is a traditional and particularly Christian misinterpretation of the passage, and one we’ve discussed on the Dope, actually. > [@Jewish/christian questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/25): > > Just taking one, let’s look at [Daniel 9.](http://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3409.htm) > > Now keep in mind that “messiah” is a Christian mis-translation and, in any case the time line is totally wrong for this prophecy to apply to Jesus.There was _half a millennium between the Restoration of Jerusalem and the birth of Jesus._ And rather than 62 _weeks_ between his anointing and the destruction of Jerusalem, it was roughly 40 years past his death until the destruction of Jersualem. It was roughly 600 \*years \* between the rebuilding of Jerusalem under Cyrus and its destruction at the hands of the Romans in 70 CE. And Titus, the Roman general who led the siege and would later become Emperor didn’t die of a flood. > > But aside from all that, sure, it’s totally a prophecy of Jesus. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/511 "2011-04-21T04:28:54Z")
Okay, here’s a triple post, sorry. But the other thread reminded me of it. How about two fake “rabbis”? [ > [@](#): > > Milwaukie – Rabbi Ari Crockett seemed to be an answered prayer to Portland-area Christians hungering to connect with the Jewish roots of their faith. A captivating speaker. A remarkable teacher. A man raised as a Jew who could twine the two religions and bring to life the Old Testament. > > But something wasn’t right. > […] > > Rabbi Crockett isn’t Jewish or the grandson of a highly respected rabbi. He never fought in Panama or Grenada, and he didn’t lose his leg to a terrorist or a land mine. He doesn’t know Steven Spielberg or Bill Gates. He was never a college professor, an international lawyer or a computer scientist. A secret code he once told investors would speed up the Internet consisted of numerical gibberish, including the Star of David and something that looks like a Burger King crown. > […] > > The spiritual leader of Milwaukie’s Beth El Congregation, affiliated with an Ohio-based evangelical Christian denomination, has had seven wives. He’s been a soldier and a bounty hunter. He’s changed his name, escaped from a federal prison and spent time as an international fugitive. > > […] > > A stepfather, Brian Campbell, said Ehrmantrout was raised Catholic and once served as an altar boy. > > A detailed report prepared by a Montana probation officer describes Ehrmantrout’s history from childhood, through 1995, when he changed his name to Dallas A. Crockett > > […] > > Beth El Congregation is affiliated with the Church of God, General Conference, a Christian organization that has branched into the Hebrew Roots movement. Some of its churches study the Torah, celebrate Jewish holidays and refer to pastors as rabbis. Top church officials said they are familiar with aspects of Crockett’s past and fully support him. > > On a recent Saturday afternoon in Milwaukie, 40 cars were in the parking lot of the church where Beth El rents space. Inside, Taron Leigh James had traded his cowboy hat for a yarmulke. The one-time country music hopeful strapped on a black-and-white electric guitar and his Christian rock band kicked into gear. ]([http://www.rickross.com/reference/messianic/messianic29.html](http://www.rickross.com/reference/messianic/messianic29.html)) And [Michael Esses.](http://books.google.com/books?id=CEJjuJnu1O4C&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=Michael+Esses+fake&source=bl&ots=ptKEW85f2M&sig=9-LHXuhfuGm6figrAenXrZH4MUA&hl=en&ei=FrKvTbiCAoG6tgfdhLykBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Michael%20Esses%20fake&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/512 "2011-04-21T04:59:40Z")
1. This is my original post that you have been arguing about for the last 24 hours… **all of which as proven to be true.** > [@CitizenPained](#): > > **Plenty** of Messianic jews were never ethnic Jews to begin with. It’s also an anti-Jewish movement started by Evangelical Christians. > > Some Messianic jews may be born Jewish and allowed baal teshuva, but they’re still **Christians**. > > Yes I just little j’d that on purpose. 😛 that was in response to you: > [@furt](#): > > Except that they aren’t trying to join; they were already members. > > Messianic Jews were born to the tribe as much as anyone else. If they have come to believe and espouse something the tribe considers antithetical to its identity, the tribe is of course within its rights to _cast them out_. But it’s inaccurate to describe it as if they are outsiders with no connection trying to horn in somewhere they never belonged. = myth that the ‘synagogue’ down the street is a group where ‘Jews’ worship ‘Jesus’ = that’s pretty much been hammered out… = ok. you have some misconceptions. i mean, i just addressed all those things on that page, but I can repeat myself. Gee, you think it would’ve died there. 1. I am really really sorry if you think I am calling you an antisemite. I’m not. That’s a huge thing to say. I just think you are coming off as having a prejudice that is uncalled for. I can have a prejudice that falls under the category of ‘racism’ but that doesn’t make me racist by default. I am going to explain why because I think convos about language is productive to everyone and then I’m done because this is is not a pit thread. Ethnic Jew = usually used to describe someone born of a Jewish mother but not affiliated in any way. No one calls a convert to Christianity an ethnic Jew on a continual basis. Possibly “ethnic by birth” or “Hebrew Christian” in Israel, but if we do say “ethnic Jew” who converted, that’s not saying that this person is in any way practicing any form of Judaism or are “part of the Tribe”. Cultural Jew = someone who is part of Jewish culture - not practicing Religious Jew = someone who practices (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox) Jew= generic catch-all, but does not include Jews who have converted. Genetics \*\*isn’\*\*t an automatic disqualification **or** qualification. > [@furt](#): > > I have said nothing of the kind. Zilch, zero. You’re either confusing me with someone else or else making things up. I didn’t say it, don’t think it, and find it offensive. > > I invite **Finn** and **Malthus** to comment on this. 1. You said that Jews who are Christians should be calling themselves Jews because of some genetic decree and because they want to – even though it is a slap in the face to us and to 3,000+ years of history. And we say they can’t do that. 2. You said our ethnicity (which always includes culture) is related to genetics (I have this great great Jewish grandfather…") so people of “Jewish descent” (what’s that? half the world?) are Jews to you. 3. You came in\* here\*. Look at the title. We’d totally moved away from that issue and then you made these statements. You didn’t clarify yourself. 4. We went in rounds with Towers (born Jewish, btw) about how you couldn’t be a Christian Jew. He was arguing as a matter of having conflict with our atheist Jew stance. It was about theology. When that settled, it was perfectly **fine** until you had to hammer on _the same damned question_. We’d already addressed Jews who convert! This thread has been about what makes a Jew Jewish and what makes you not. What makes us a religion and how you can be an atheist Jew. What makes you _not_ a Jew was pretty clearly established. Christianity is an unquestionable definitive line. To claim you’re one of “us” (Jewish) when you’re one of “them” (Christian) is a lie. I may come off as irritated/arrogant/bratty, but do you see me going into a thread about Muslims and telling me what makes them Muslim?! **In fact, you posted right after me when I said that Messianic judaism was a lie.** Your reasoning? “Ethnic Jewish heritage.” wtf ? _We’d already covered that._ But I re-covered it. I said that’s not a Jewish person. Then I even cited pretty quickly the sociological concepts that backed up what we were saying and you went 14,000 rounds claiming that we needed to prove something when the burden of proof was on yourself. When I did come up with those cites, you acted as though you weren’t really apologetic at all…more of a sarcastic “GEEEZ. SORREEE.” It wasn’t just about “asking for a cite”. And you’re\*\* still arguing\*\* with Finn as I type. Why? As I was saying: > [@furt](#): > > If you say so, but I’ve known ~15 Messianic Jews. Every single one was partly or fully an ethnic Jew. I’ve never heard of Messianic Jews that weren’t (which doesn’t mean they don’t exist…) > > I think there are some gentiles that get involved with Jews for Jesus, but AFAIK they do not claim to be Jews. [/QUOTE] This was clarified on page 1 and probably more in the thread, but there is **no such thing as a partial Jew**. So I explained that **right away** and you tried to _argue with me_! When it’s been established by all Jews that that you’re wrong. We were informing you. No name calling. No yelling. Just mistaken. > [@furt](#): > > Adding: Jews for Jesus has a “stories” section. Without looking at them all, every one of them appear to be ethnic Jews. > > [http://www.jewsforjesus.org/topics/answers/lifestories](http://www.jewsforjesus.org/topics/answers/lifestories) > [@furt](#): > > But see, I’ve never seen anyone who calls themself a “Messianic Jew” who was not ethnically Jewish. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but I’ve never seen one. > > They may well be the horrible, terrible people some Jews think they are; that’s irrelevant. My point is that AFICT, they (or at least the vast majority) are in fact of Jewish descent. The Jewish community is (IMO) within their rights to say that such persons are “no longer truly Jewish” or somesuch; but if they are descendants of Abraham who grew up going to synagogues and spinning dreidels (and indeed, in some cases surviving the Holocaust), it seems dishonest to me to pretend that they have no more connection to Judaism than someone who comes from 12 generations of Methodists. > > In the same way, I could see and understand a Native American tribe declaring that anyone converting to a white man’s religion was no longer Apache or Sioux; but that wouldn’t change the facts of the outcast’s genetics and personal history. > > Again, correct me if I’m wrong; but I’ve known quite a few “Jewish Christians,” and AFAIK they all were of Jewish descent, and certainly the website seems to have many dozens of similar stories. > > If anyone knows of comparable numbers of gentiles passing themselves off as Jews, I’d like to see a cite. :smack: bunch of old people spinning dreidels and thinking about the holocaust, ah, the imagery Are you trying to redefine our identity or something? You first said you knew some “partial ethnic Jews” who were Christians. Then you drop partial and just say “ethnic”. Does this mean you think that a great grandson of a Jewish man is a Jew? We said there’s no such thing. So you think that it’s OK for them to say so? Why? Cause we’ve done this one already. It \*looks \*like you are equating some genetics with Jewish identity: That only matters when it comes to who your mom is. I explained that. Very. Carefully. I know other people are using that term, but this post made me go ?! because you conflate _ethnicity_ with _genetics_. And this is what I _heard_/felt you say/inferred after we’d explained it to you: “Oh, okay, these Jewish people are saying what Judaism means in an ethnic sense, a religious sense, and that it’s not a race _at all_ and I’ve been told you can’t claim Judaism and Christianity at the same time because that makes you not Jewish _and_ that J4J is a propaganda machine, but…well…even though there are a lot of links in this thread, I’ll just challenge these people.” Even if you didn’t mean to hint that it was a matter of clear-cut genetics, you tried to _redefine_ us. Dude, you don’t get a vote. 😛 Finn even said this group was largely “not Jewish by ethnicity”. That includes the great grandson of a Jew like the group’s founder **and** the people who have no association who affiliate with the group. (90 per cent) When a Jew converts, he deflects. It doesn’t matter. That J4J is mostly Gentile. 100 per cent of them are Christians. They are not part of this _thing_ we call Judaism anymore. Period. So when you are looking at something that is blurry and has a lot of rules, please don’t put your own definitions that no one agrees with onto something. You _look like_you are arguing our positions because we are not Christians who fit your idea of Who is A Jew. That was my point of contention. Tis all. > [@furt](#): > > Are they all liars? Again, they may be ex-Jews, or outcasts, or infidels, or whatever. But acting as if they have no more **claim to** Jewishness than I do is misleading. They _don’t_. **Malthus** corrects you and you are still argue. If 13 million people say, “This is our group. Here are some basic rules: You can’t Convert. **You aren’t a rabbi if you convert.** Your synagogue is not a synagogue if it’s a church. The end.” Why are you challenging that? > [@furt](#): > > **I am challenging the suggestion that the majority – or even many – of Messianic Jews are not, in fact ethnically Jewish, and I am asking for a cite.** :smack: Even if 100 per cent of them were born of a Jewish mother, that doesn’t make them Jewish. It doesn’t mean we have to accept their “ties” to “us”. I told you that **you can’t be part of an ethnic group without following the general criteria** of that group. I conclude that you may have some weird ideas about Judaism and race because you are dismissive of our definition of our\* ethnic \*Tribe. You could’ve corrected me. I could’ve misunderstood you. But you didn’t. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > If you and I divorce, do I have the right to make your medical decisions? > > NO. Will the law give me all your cash by default when you die? > > NO. I have effectively been cut off. I don’t have a vote in your medical care and I don’t get your nice condo in Miami when you croak. > > **Jews have a covenant to each other that can’t be explained to a non-Jew. You defect, you defect.** > > I don’t know why we’re even trying to argue with you since you seem to think that _most_ Messianic Jews were once **Jews at birth** **and** you think Jews are a _racial_ group. > > We can’t argue with antisemitism; sorry. I clarify later that I’m saying you have a misguided view. I didn’t make judgement on you as a person. But your view echoes an antisemitic one. You could’ve just said, “Oh, no, you misunderstood me” when I explained why. Instead, you insinuated that I lied and continued to argue with Finn et al. about a position of yours that is different from your original. > [@furt](#): > > . > In my experience, yes, they are. Most were born of a Jewish mother,\*\* or were born of a woman who was born of a Jewish mother\*\*. :smack: _These people are not Jewish._ If they had showed up to a shul saying, hey, my \*grandmother on my mother’s side is Jewish \ ***and** I want to be part of this" that’s cool because that’s OK according to Jewish law. But just claiming to be a _Jewish Christian_? Lie. imho, it is not OK for people to push your definitions of a group on to that group. The practice of doing that is called “ethnocentric-ism”. It means you’re looking at us through your lens and not ours and trying to make us adopt to your view. If you have genuine questions or if you want to debate something, ok, but if you invalidate me then I probably won’t think you have virtuous motives. This is not a pit thread. I am sooo not pitting you. But this thread has actually been largely productive and it was sad to think whatever the good stuff that came out of it all of the sudden didn’t mean anything because we had to hit the reset button. I’m respectfully asking that you just please watch your language. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/513 "2011-04-21T05:01:24Z")
**Finn** , he’s essentially calling us paranoid. As if we had no reason to be suspicious. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/514 "2011-04-21T05:15:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > And at no point did I ever make any false claims about my ethnic heritage. > > If I’d succeded in getting Messianic Jewish Girl to go out with and marry me, and she insisted that we go to a Messianic Jewish church, I might go every week. And sitting next to me might be Crazy Larry, also with no ethnic Jewish heritage, but attending because he likes it more than the churches he grew up in. Again, Larry and I both freely acknowledge we are 100% gentile. > > So while the fact that most Messianic Jewish congregations have a such a high percentage of ethnic gentiles is somewhat surprising to me, it doesn’t address the question I have been asking for the last day. I just fell over and I was already laying down. \*\* Messianic Jew-\*\* Any former JEW BY JEWISH LAW that converts to Christianity (super tiny per cent!) any Christian who wants to make that claim **Is a Messianic Jew a Jew?** A: No. \*\* What is he?\*\* A: A Christian. \*\* Why do they call themselves Jews?\*\* A: Because they either suffer a major identity crisis or want to be deceitful. **What’s an ethnic Gentile?** Dude, I have no idea. **What group of people recognizes these converts as Jews?** No one that has a vote. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/515 "2011-04-21T15:16:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Malthus has already pointed out that one of the “testimonies” is a rather blatant fiction. Others ping real Jews’ bullshit dectors for a variety of reasons. … One of the cites that you, yourself, provided featured a Christian pretending to be a “Reformed” Jew who thought that Jews were the majority religion in his country, evidently up to the point where he entered high school. \* Sigh. Dude, you guys knocked one line in one guy’s story. You keep saying that they’re all lies, but it hasn’t been until your second post above that you’ve started actually showing why you think they’re BS. Some of the things you’re picking on seem arguable to me, but the thing about Chelm does make me a bit dubious about that guy’s story. And the other guy is clearly a fabulist, though he seems more like a general catch-all fabricator-for-attention than someone engaged in a conspiracy. Nevertheless, this is the kind of evidence that impresses me. If you have more - especially anything that suggests that this kind of thing is in fact common - I’d like to see it. I am heading out of town and won’t be back until Sunday at the earliest. In the meantime, in post #507, I quote **CitizenPained** misrepresenting me for purposes of calling me an anti-semite. I’d like to know if you agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/516 "2011-04-21T15:19:03Z")
I have a question a bit related to the OP. Even though it doesnt appear that the tendencies in some Jews to want to get in a relationship with another Jew rather than a Gentile is as massive as what the OP made it out to be, the behavior does exist. I thought that even for Orthodox Jews, the prime question of assessing if someone is Jewish or not is that the mother be Jewish. In that case, why would Jews who think that it is really important that their numbers dont decrease be concerned over Jewish girls marrying or having kids with Gentiles? Shouldnt thye be concerned only about male Jews doing that, and not females? After all, in a mixed Jewish-Gentile couple, if it’s the mother that’s Jewish, ultimately the kids will be Jewish. Yet, on stories related to that subject (like that letter from Orthodox rabbis back in December in Israel), the focus seems far more on female Jews marrying outside of the faith than on males doing so. So? Also, another question: if the mother thing is that important, is there some kind of reverse China syndrome? That is the Chinese (but also the Indians I hear. And come to that, it is quite frequent in a lot of other places as well) far prefer to have male kids rather than female ones. So, with the concern over the Jewishness of the mother necessary to transmit the status (cant think of a better word there), is there some kind of similar behavior among some Jews, but this time focusing on having girls instead of boys? The vast majority of Jews that I can say I know well are North African Jews, and there’s really no difference on that point with North Africans in general, boy is usually prefered. But logically, it should be the reverse, if there was to be any preference. Does that exist in some Jewish communities? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/517 "2011-04-21T15:23:21Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Dude, you guys knocked one line in one guy’s story. Your reliance on this claim is odd. It’s been explained to you over, and over, and over that the person who wrote that is rather obviously not a Jew. Your insistence on reducing that to vague disagreement about “one line” does nobody any service. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/518 "2011-04-21T15:36:16Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > … Even though it doesnt appear that the tendencies in some Jews to want to get in a relationship with another Jew rather than a Gentile is as massive as what the OP made it out to be, the behavior does exist. But apparently no more so, and perhaps less so, than any other self identified sociocultural group’s tendency to select from within that group. Half the time American Jews marry outside that group. What’s the rate for Christians? For Muslims? For Hindus? Less? More? > [@](#): > > … the focus seems far more on female Jews marrying outside of the faith than on males doing so. > So? Not sure it is but there is good reason why it might be if it is - the Jews by that definition so produced are set up to be non-righteous by the Orthodox criteria: Jews not living up to the standards of following the rules. Children born of Jewish fathers to non-Jewish mothers OTOH can be righteous Gentiles. As to the preference for females … I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/519 "2011-04-21T15:41:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Not sure it is but there is good reason why it might be if it is - the Jews by that definition so produced are set up to be non-righteous by the Orthodox criteria: Jews not living up to the standards of following the rules. Children born of Jewish fathers to non-Jewish mothers OTOH can be righteous Gentiles. That’s strange, a Jewish father would be more apt at providing a proper Jewish education in a Jewish/Gentile couple than a Jewish mother would? Seems a bit contradictory with establishing matrilineal Jewishness. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/520 "2011-04-21T15:44:02Z")
Oddly, after all this thread, Zombie seems not to understand the point that children born of Jewish women in mixed marriages will be Jews but probably not follow the commandments, while children born of Jewish fathers will generally be considered gentiles. It _is_ taking longer than we thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=27)