# why do jews get a pass when it comes to racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370 "2011-04-06T06:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/81 "2011-04-06T15:22:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say it was universal. I was rebutting the contention that it’s a rule. I think political differences are far more contentious than religious ones. Most hatred and violence in the world is caused by political differences, not religious ones. OK. I agree that neither extreme can be said to be a rule. It’s perfectly possible to imagine a given Jew motivated by bigotry when he declares he won’t marry outside his religion, of course. So it certainly _could_ be bigotry, but it doesn’t have to be. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/82 "2011-04-06T15:23:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, we’re talking about an adult woman who told a guy, the very first time he asked her out, that she wouldn’t marry him and cited her father’s attitude as a justification. Yes. We’re talking about parents imposing stnadrds on who their kids marry. How does this contradict me? Are you suggesting that girl was lying? Even if she was, so what? The premise for discussion still stands - is it “bigoted” to forbid your kids to marry outside of your own religious group? Of course it is. I’m amazed that anyone is trying to defend it. No one would defend it if it was a Muslim father forbidding his daughter to marry a non-Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/83 "2011-04-06T15:25:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. I agree that neither extreme can be said to be a rule. It’s perfectly possible to imagine a given Jew motivated by bigotry when he declares he won’t marry outside his religion, of course. So it certainly _could_ be bigotry, but it doesn’t have to be. What if he forbids his _daughter_ to marry outside of her religion? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/84 "2011-04-06T15:32:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes. We’re talking about parents imposing stnadrds on who their kids marry. No, we’re not. The comment was “in her family, she claimed that it’s traditional for a jew to marry another jew.” Even if it was a parent having a preference that their grandparent be raised in their religion/culture, that still wouldn’t be “bigotry”. And no, the Argument From Nuhn Uhnnh! does not bridge that logical gap. Just like your “whites only” analogy doesn’t hold true since the WO country clubs don’t have a policy whereby blacks can convert to being white and then be accepted as full members of the group, and that’s ignoring that fact that preference for in-group dynamics does _not_ necessitate scorn for out-group membership. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Are you suggesting that girl was lying? Seriously? After a guy has apparently been Nice Guying a girl and asks her out, she _immediately starts talking about how they can’t get married_, and you think that the most likely explanation is “religious bigotry”? If she’d said “I’m going to be washing my hair that weekend” would you think she was a crazed beautician? > [@](#): > > is it “bigoted” to forbid your kids to marry outside of your own religious group? Of course it is. Yet again: > [@](#): > > You have now reached the point in an argument where you are simply repeating dogmatic, absolutist, absurd and unsupported assertions. They also happen to be erroneous. This will not end well. Telling your children that you’d want them to raise your grandchildren within your faith/culture is not bigoted. Especially when conversion is explicitly considered as a viable way to bridge any potential gaps. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/85 "2011-04-06T15:35:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Who are “jews”? > > Are they like “Jews”? I too, am intrigued by the OP’s deliberate decision to not capitalize this proper noun. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/86 "2011-04-06T15:37:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Of course it is. Is “whites only” equivalent to a bias against non-whites? Whatever distinction you’re trying to draw here is too fine for me. It’s possible I’m making it too complicated. But I don’t think this is quite the same as separate but equal. > [@](#): > > But that it could “never lead anywhere” because of her father’s bigotry. Right. I agree the father is being controlling and I don’t have a problem calling his behavior bigotry. I suppose I’m more interested in the girl’s actions because I don’t think that’s so clear cut. Who you marry is your business. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/87 "2011-04-06T15:38:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Telling your children that you’d want them to raise your grandchildren within your faith/culture is not bigoted. Especially when conversion is explicitly considered as a viable way to bridge any potential gaps. This isn’t what we’re talking about. We’re talking about parents flat out forbidding their kids to marry outside their own religious group, not just politely expressing a preference. And demanding conversion is bigoted too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/88 "2011-04-06T15:39:25Z")
And in the interest of fairness, **FinnAgain** , I am sure you know that not everyone accepts a convert as a ‘real’ Jew (or probably Christian or whatever). And **Diogenes the Cynic** , the father can “forbid” the marriage but can’t actually stop her from marrying a non-Jew, short of kidnapping her. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/89 "2011-04-06T15:41:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What if he forbids his _daughter_ to marry outside of her religion? Then he’s being an observant Jew. Deuteronomy 7:3: > [@](#): > > …neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. > > For he will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/90 "2011-04-06T15:45:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s possible I’m making it too complicated. But I don’t think this is quite the same as separate but equal. > Right. I agree the father is being controlling and I don’t have a problem calling his behavior bigotry. I suppose I’m more interested in the girl’s actions because I don’t think that’s so clear cut. Who you marry is your business. The girl could just be blowing a guy off, as **Finn** suggests, or she could be afraid of her father, and not really following her on heart, or she could be a bigot. We don’t knowfrom the information given. I think that people who set up absolute religious standards for who they themselves will marry are, at the least, narrow-minded (and saying their partners can convert is not less bigoted. They’re still imposing a demand on what the other pesron must believe religiously). “I’d like to marry a nice Catholic boy” is one thing. “I absolutely refuse to marry anyone who is not Catholic unless they convert” is bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/91 "2011-04-06T15:48:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And in the interest of fairness, **FinnAgain** , I am sure you know that not everyone accepts a convert as a ‘real’ Jew (or probably Christian or whatever). And **Diogenes the Cynic** , the father can “forbid” the marriage but can’t actually stop her from marrying a non-Jew, short of kidnapping her. Not everyone Jewish or not everyone not-Jewish? Jewish people are commanded to accept (and love) converts - after the mikveh immersion they are explicitly to be “considered Jewish _in all respects_”. There is quite a bit of controversy at the moment around some strands of Judaism not accepting conversions made in other strands, but there is nothing that means converts aren’t “real” Jews, as you have claimed. If someone were to convert within this woman’s strand of Judaism, whatever it was, they would be Jewish to her and her family. Non-Jewish people saying “Oh, you’re not _really_ Jewish then” to converts is annoying and patronising, but Jewish people can hardly be blamed for that! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/92 "2011-04-06T15:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > And demanding conversion is bigoted too. Yet again, again: > [@](#): > > You have now reached the point in an argument where you are simply repeating dogmatic, absolutist, absurd and unsupported assertions. They also happen to be erroneous. This will not end well. Your idea that “We will accept you as one of us as long as you have a sincere desire to become one of us” is _bigoted_ strains credulity to the point where it’s just gotten a double hernia. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This isn’t what we’re talking about That evidently isn’t what _you’re_ talking about. The rest of us are discussing this thread. I already quoted that the OP said that what was actually at issue was that her family had a tradition of marriage within the faith. As always, the Argument From Nuhn Uhnnh! is a waste of photons. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > We’re talking about parents flat out forbidding their kids to marry outside their own religious group, not just politely expressing a preference. Evidently you’ve created an elaborate strawman. Or can you quote anybody, at all, who’s said that they’d disown their children if they married outside of their faith? All we actually have is some vaguely worded claims that “her father” had something to do with it, and an explicit claim that it was a family tradition. We also have the near-certainty that the OP was getting the brush off from a girl who was telling him that she might be interested in having him as someone she played around with, but she wasn’t interested in any sort of commitment. And as you still have only your dogmatic and erroneous assertion to support a claim that environmentalist parents who didn’t want their daughter marrying, or outright yelled at their daughter and tried to convince her not to marry a strip-miner would be “environmentalist bigots.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/93 "2011-04-06T15:49:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then he’s being an observant Jew. Deuteronomy 7:3: Yes, the Bible expresses a lot of bigoted standards. So what? what is your point? If people defend homophobia by quoting Leviticus, does that mean they aren’t really bigots? I fail to see your point here. It’s not bigoted if it’s in the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/94 "2011-04-06T15:51:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And in the interest of fairness, **FinnAgain** , I am sure you know that not everyone accepts a convert as a ‘real’ Jew (or probably Christian or whatever). And **Diogenes the Cynic** , the father can “forbid” the marriage but can’t actually stop her from marrying a non-Jew, short of kidnapping her. Correct on both counts, although as a general principle an Orthodox conversion will have very wide, if not near-universal, acceptance. The issue arises when a Reform rabbi does a conversion; it may not be accepted among Conservative or Orthodox followers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/95 "2011-04-06T15:56:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Your idea that “We will accept you as one of us as long as you have a sincere desire to become one of us” is _bigoted_ strains credulity to the point where it’s just gotten a double hernia. No, it’s bigotry to say we will NOT accept you as long as you don’t conform to our own personal superstitions," which is what we’re actually talking about. > [@](#): > > That evidently isn’t what _you’re_ talking about. The rest of us are discussing this thread. I already quoted that the OP said that what was actually at issue was that her family had a tradition of marriage within the faith. As always, the Argument From Nuhn Uhnnh! is a waste of photons. No, what the OP said was that the girl claimed any relationship she had with a goyim could “never go anywhere” because of her father. > [@](#): > > Evidently you’ve created an elaborate strawman. Or can you quote anybody, at all, who’s said that they’d disown their children if they married outside of their faith? All we actually have is some vaguely worded claims that “her father” had something to do with it, and an explicit claim that it was a family tradition. We also have the near-certainty that the OP was getting the brush off from a girl who was telling him that she might be interested in having him as someone she played around with, but she wasn’t interested in any sort of commitment. Speculating on the girl’s motives in the OP doesn’t really mean anything, since it doesn’t alter the fundamental issue of parents forbidding their children to marry outside their religious group. > [@](#): > > And as you still have only your dogmatic and erroneous assertion to support a claim that environmentalist parents who didn’t want their daughter marrying, or outright yelled at their daughter and tried to convince her not to marry a strip-miner would be “environmentalist bigots.” Huh? I have no idea what you’re talking about here. I didn’t say anything about environmentalists or strip miners. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/96 "2011-04-06T15:59:13Z")
“Goyim” is plural - “-im” is a plural suffix in Hebrew. “A goy” or “goyim”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/97 "2011-04-06T16:00:00Z")
Ok. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/98 "2011-04-06T16:00:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, the Bible expresses a lot of bigoted standards. So what? what is your point? If people defend homophobia by quoting Leviticus, does that mean they aren’t really bigots? I fail to see your point here. It’s not bigoted if it’s in the Bible? In my first post in this thread, I utterly dismissed the idea that this could be called racism, because the word doesn’t reach this conduct. I was a bit more gentle with the notion of it being bigotry, because while I admit that the word can fit the conduct, I don’t agree it’s the most useful way to describe what’s happening. In my opinion, when we speak of bigotry, we speak of – and imply – a pervasive animus. But that’s not what’s going on in most cases of fighting against interfaith marriages. I can easily cite statistics that show that most Jewish interfaith marriages result in less involvement in Jewish traditions for the children. When a couple says that they’ll raise children with both Christmas and Chanukkah celebrations, the underlying message is, in my opinion, “Religion is an _a la carte_ cafeteria line; pick and choose what pleases you and go with it.” This is contrary to Jewish observant tradition (and, indeed, to Christian tradition). A father forbidding his daughter to marry outside his faith is not necessarily motivated by a general animus against other faiths, but by the more positive quality of seeking to maintain his faith and its traditions. This is not fairly described as bigotry; it’s not a useful word to capture what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/99 "2011-04-06T16:01:41Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Not everyone Jewish or not everyone not-Jewish? Jewish people are commanded to accept (and love) converts - after the mikveh immersion they are explicitly to be “considered Jewish _in all respects_”. I’m not blaming Jews for that collectively. I’m just pointing out, for the sake of accuracy, that it’s not always as simple as ‘once you convert, you’re good.’ Maybe it’s _supposed_ to be that way, but it doesn’t always work out that way. I was thinking of a friend of mine from high school. Her mother had converted to Judaism when she married my friend’s father, but even 20 years later the father’s parents didn’t really accept the mother as Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370/100 "2011-04-06T16:01:49Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Many jews will only marry other jews. Or, if you are willing to convert, a jew might marry the party that converts (assuming it is ok with the jewish family, jewish person in the relationship, or whoever is putting pressure on the jew to not marry a non-jew). I don’t consider restricting whom one will marry, or even date, racism. It is each person’s right to determine that for himself or herself, subject only to the willingness of the other party. Moreover, declining to marry unless one’s partner converts to one’s own faith is _religious_ bias, not _racial_ bias. > [@](#): > > If I love you in every way but won’t marry you because you aren’t of the same religion, color, or whatever, doesn’t that make me an elitist and a racist by definition? No, it does not. I prefer not to define racism down. Every person should be free to decline to marry or date others for whatever reason they choose. It only becomes racism when persons attempt to force their beliefs on others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-jews-get-a-pass-when-it-comes-to-racism/577370.md?page=6)