# Why do kids recite the Pledge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670 "2004-06-16T15:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/41 "2004-06-17T22:30:00Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, to be fair, I really don’t see why too many people wouldn’t want to say the Pledge, except for the “under God” phrase. Yet the Supreme Court case was decided prior to the inclusion of these words. So there you go. > > If you go through the Pledge, abd read it objectively, you’ll find that what you’re pledging allegiance to is a unifying symbol of America, the nation itself, and certain broad and inclusive ideals. > > There’s nothing really objectionable in it for most people, and thus the Pledge serves as a useful oath of American unity. It basically serves the purpose its author intended. This doesn’t really have any bearing on this debate, but I thought I’d mention some of the details of the Supreme Court case that decided that nobody could be required to say the pledge. It was brought by Jehovah’s Witnesses on First Amendment grounds. I don’t remember all the facts off hand but it’s something like their religion forbids allegance to anything but God. So forcing their kids to say the pledge was forcing them to go against their religious doctrine. > [@Brutus](#): > > The vast majority of Americans have no problem with it. Is it not easier for the few that have a problem to just not say it, as is the case now? Or is not saying three words too difficult? It’s not the words, it’s the principle. And it’s not just any principle, it’s one of the principles that this country was founded on. Why can’t you understand that? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/42 "2004-06-17T23:55:28Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Stand by your statement, but it’s still wrong. [Muslims agree: Add Islam to ‘Judeo-Christian’.](http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=32122&page=NB) Your uncited disagreement doesn’t carry much weight, I’m afraid. Not to mention, you add ‘Jews’ (they put the ‘Jud’ in ‘Judeo’, you know) with Hindus and whatnot. Why? I “added Jews” to the illustration only to make a point that if you include certain groups and exclude others, you can always put together a majority of the world’s religions. But such groups may have very little in common and have no reason to be combined other than to make a list. No matter how much you or your cited Muslims may want to be included as part of Christianity, that is not how most of the world sees it. Granted, there are similarities (both have an Abrahamic heritage and a middle-eastern geographic source) but there are vast differences (Islam recognizes Christ as only a prophet, Christianity worships him as a true god). Calling Islam a Christian religion doesn’t make it such. I grew up in a protestant environment. I can feel comfortable in almost any protestant church; I know the lingo, I have sung the hymns, I have talked the talk and walked the walk. Even a Catholic service wouldn’t be a stretch. But I’m sure I would be totally lost if invited to a Muslim worship service, even if in English; almost nothing would seem familiar. These religions are worlds apart. No matter how you may define “god” or in what language, if you examine the historical record, you will find that the insertion of the phase in the Pledge originated, not in the Islamic or Hindu community, but the Christian (actually Catholic, K of C) one. I haven’t been able to find any reference from that time that intended it to encompass a greater group than the Judeo-Christian one; if you have such a reference, I would like to see it (seriously). > [@](#): > > You are under no legal obligation to say, ‘Under God’. Saying that you have ‘No Rights’ is a red herring, at best. More drama queen than reasoned statement. This has been addressed by me and others in earlier posts. I have heard nothing new to change my opinion, just some noisy posters. In brief, the current Pledge is a government-sponsored oath. It includes a reference to a particular religious concept not universal. It represents the official government position. It is encouraged to be recited daily by impressionable children precisely to indoctrinate them in the party line and effectively makes anyone who objects into second-class citizens. It is a classic case of the tyranny of the majority. And it’s un-American. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/43 "2004-06-18T01:42:18Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > No matter how much you or your cited Muslims may want to be included as part of Christianity, that is not how most of the world sees it. Granted, there are similarities (both have an Abrahamic heritage and a middle-eastern geographic source) but there are vast differences (Islam recognizes Christ as only a prophet, Christianity worships him as a true god). Calling Islam a Christian religion doesn’t make it such. You need to pledge allegiance to reading comprehension. Who the bloody hell said that Islam wants to be considered Christian, other than you? ‘Judeo-Christian’ does not refer to only Christians. It refers to all ‘Abrahamic’ faiths. And when you add those up, it’s over 50% of the worlds population, negating your earlier stupid comment. > [@](#): > > … It includes a reference to a particular religious concept not universal. So, no more ‘specific religion’, huh? > [@](#): > > It is encouraged to be recited daily by impressionable children precisely to indoctrinate them in the party line and effectively makes anyone who objects into second-class citizens. How the living hell does not saying the PoA turn you into a second-class citizen? Specifics, please. No vague hand-waving hysterics. > [@](#): > > It is a classic case of the tyranny of the majority. No. ‘Tyranny of the majority’ would be the attacks on religious folks during the strict-atheist period of the Soviet Union. Putting an optional phrase in an optional oath does not constitute ‘tyranny’ by any reasonable standard. > [@](#): > > And it’s un-American. Heh, another one. That makes what, 4 or 5 leftists on this board crying ‘un-American’. Well, I’ll grant that you are an expert on things ‘un-American’, even if you don’t have a clue about religion. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/44 "2004-06-18T06:32:05Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You are under no legal obligation to say, ‘Under God’. … > But nobody is obligated to recite the words ‘Under God’. I honestly don’t understand why people don’t get this. People who want the ‘under God’ to stay say “it’s just a couple of words, you don’t have to say them if you don’t want to”. What if the Pledge had “one Nation, under Zeus”, or “one Nation, under Allah”, or “one Nation, under the Devil”, etc? Would you then be of the opinion that “it’s just a couple of words, you don’t have to say them if you don’t want to”? Or would you try to change the Pledge? You may reply “but the majority of Americans worship God, not Zeus or the Devil”. But, as noted above, if the Pledge mentioned a deity **you** don’t worship, \*\*you \*\* would find that objectionable. So, the “it’s just a couple of words” argument fails, no matter how many Americans actually worship the deity mentioned in the Pledge. Now, if we agree that it’s not “just a couple of words”, we can start debating the real issues, such as whether it is OK to piss off or alienate a minority of Americans, in order to satisfy some desires of the majority. And not just piss them off or alienate them on any random issue, but on the issue of religion, which is important to people, and which the government should stay out of. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/45 "2004-06-18T06:51:57Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Heh, another one. That makes what, 4 or 5 leftists on this board crying ‘un-American’. Well, I’ll grant that you are an expert on things ‘un-American’, even if you don’t have a clue about religion. Well, here’s a conservative saying that the pledge is un-American. But this is not a liberal v. conservative issue. And even though liberals can be incredible ignorant and intolerant at times, I don’t think it’s fair for you to imply that they’re all un-American. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/46 "2004-06-18T07:13:14Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > …You may reply “but the majority of Americans worship God, not Zeus or the Devil”. But, as noted above, if the Pledge mentioned a deity **you** don’t worship, \*\*you \*\* would find that objectionable. So, the “it’s just a couple of words” argument fails, no matter how many Americans actually worship the deity mentioned in the Pledge. But the PoA already mentions a deity that I don’t worship. I’m an atheist; The very concept of ‘religion’ is a bit silly to me. But I recognize that this is not the case with the vast majority of Americans. And the ‘it’s just a couple of words’ argument holds much water. If those couple of words cause you such massive torment, _don’t say them_. It’s so amazingly simple, yet so many would rather piss, moan, and go to the USC over it. Amazing. > [@Max\_Castle](#): > > Well, here’s a conservative saying that the pledge is un-American. But this is not a liberal v. conservative issue. And even though liberals can be incredible ignorant and intolerant at times, I don’t think it’s fair for you to imply that they’re all un-American. **Max** , you need to keep up on current events. There has been a bit of a spate of ‘un-American’ calling by resident leftists lately. Extremely ironic, given the source, but there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/47 "2004-06-18T07:28:50Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > And the ‘it’s just a couple of words’ argument holds much water. If those couple of words cause you such massive torment, _don’t say them_. It’s so amazingly simple, yet so many would rather piss, moan, and go to the USC over it. Amazing. Let me give an extreme example, just to test what you’re claiming. If the Pledge had “one nation, under God, let’s go kill everyone in the Middle East, and poison all the people in Africa, …” Would you still think those are “just words”, or that it is highly unbecoming of the State to ‘ask’ students to pledge such a thing, even if you weren’t forced to say it? You might shout “strawman”, but I’m just pointing out that “it’s just a couple of words” does not hold. It matters \*what words \* those “couple of words” are. And to many people, it is highly unbecoming of the State to ‘ask’ students to pledge “under God”. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/48 "2004-06-18T07:47:31Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > You might shout “strawman”, but I’m just pointing out that “it’s just a couple of words” does not hold. It matters \*what words \* those “couple of words” are. Actually, I might shout “Pointless!”. Golly, what if the PoA told students to rob liquor stores and stick silverware in electric outlets!? But alas, it does not. “…under God” are the words in question. Given the religious makeup of this country, it is unreasonable to expect those 2 words to be “…under Amon-Ra” or some other deity. And those two words are not “…kill puppies!” or some other depravity, they are _…under God_, and hence, just words. > [@](#): > > And to many people, it is highly unbecoming of the State to ‘ask’ students to pledge “under God”. So those few should impose their will on the many? How about those few just don’t say those two words, and recognize that life does indeed go on? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/49 "2004-06-18T08:14:09Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > And those two words are not “…kill puppies!” or some other depravity, they are _…under God_, and hence, just words. So, if it’s “kill puppies”, it’s not just words, but if it’s “under God”, it’s just words. i.e. if it’s something that bothers you, it’s not just words. If it’s something that doesn’t bother you, it’s just words. Let’s be consistent: it’s never “just words”. It matters what those words are. > [@](#): > > So those few should impose their will on the many? How about those few just don’t say those two words, and recognize that life does indeed go on? They are not imposing their will. They are trying to impose the general principle that the state should have nothing to do with religion. Given the sorry state of many countries where religion and the state mix, I would say this is a pretty good principle. In general, life does indeed go on. But it also “did go on” when slavery was in place. I’m not saying ‘under God’ is equivalent to slavery, but just that, just because ‘life goes on’, is no reason not to fix problems in society. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/50 "2004-06-18T11:16:38Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So, if it’s “kill puppies”, it’s not just words, but if it’s “under God”, it’s just words. > i.e. if it’s something that bothers you, it’s not just words. If it’s something that doesn’t bother you, it’s just words. Well, play strawman all you want. You’ll have an easier time of making a point when you focus on the actual words in question. > [@](#): > > In general, life does indeed go on. But it also “did go on” when slavery was in place. I’m not saying ‘under God’ is equivalent to slavery, but just that, just because ‘life goes on’, is no reason not to fix problems in society. If you didn’t mean to equate ‘under God’ to slavery, then why bring it up? Regardless, to see an _optional_ ‘under God’ in an _optional_ PoA as a ‘problem in society’ is absurd. It may be a problem in the minds of a relatively few people with much time on their hands, but that doesn’t make it a societal issue. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/51 "2004-06-18T12:22:46Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You need to pledge allegiance to reading comprehension. Thank you. Your insults really brighten up this thread. > [@](#): > > Who the bloody hell said that Islam wants to be considered Christian, other than you? **You did, in the link you supplied,** [‘Judeo-Christian’ Nation? Muslims Say: Add Us, Too](http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=32122&page=NB) > [@](#): > > Even though the United States is a nation of many religions, its image to the world is defined greatly by two - Judaism and Christianity - and its value system has come to be called ''Judeo-Christian." > > Recently, American Muslims have begun to advocate expanding that term to include them, making ''Judeo-Christian-Islamic" or ''Abrahamic" the label for American morals and values. Note that this is from CAIN, Council on American-Islamic Relations, hardly a neutral body, and it is a proposal, not a statement of fact. I find it hard to include Islam in my definition of Judeo-Christianity. But we have several highly-regarded religious scholars on SDMB and it would be nice to hear from some of them, since, as **Brutus** so politely puts it, I “don’t have a clue about religion.” **Zev,** you out there? Let me see if I can sum up **Brutus’** points as I understand them.[ol][li]The word “God” is used in the Pledge because the dominant USA religion is Christian, which worships a deity called “God” rather than “Krishna.” And the dominant USA language is English, which uses “God” to describe that deity rather than “Allah.”[\*]The government does not rigidly require recitation of the entire Pledge, and those who object to parts of it may abstain from saying them.[/ol]Am I close?[/li] > [@Brutus](#): > > Heh, another one. That makes what, 4 or 5 leftists on this board crying ‘un-American’. Who you callin’ a leftist? Hunh? Them’s fightin’ words, Son. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/52 "2004-06-18T14:38:10Z")
Amusing. Most jewish people I know, who have paid any attention to it, are rather horribly insulted by ‘Judeo-Christian’. Because it means Christian. Search in the past for long discussions on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/53 "2004-06-18T15:28:29Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Well, play strawman all you want. You’ll have an easier time of making a point when you focus on the actual words in question. See, I knew you’d bring up the strawman attack \ Let me clarify for the 10th time. Maybe we’ll make some progress this time. I was making the point that words in the Pledge are not ‘just words’, and that it matters what the words are. You seem to object to “kill puppies” in the Pledge, but you consider “under God” as “just words”. How can you not see how illogical this is? I am not saying that “kill puppies” and “under God” are equally bad. I am saying that if we push the words in the Plesdge to extremes they cease to be “just words” for you, which proves that the only reason “under God” are “just words” for you is that you don’t object to them. But that’s just you. Calling the words in the Pledge “just words” based on _your_ sense of what is objectionable is illogical because that means everyone will have a different set of what things qualify as “just words”. The only logical conclusion is that we cannot treat them as “just words” In the next post from you I expect: "Yes, you were right, now I see it. I was wrong in thinking that ‘under God’ are ‘just words’ " 🙂 (probability of this happening 10^-1000) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670/54 "2004-06-18T21:24:10Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > In the next post from you I expect: "Yes, you were right, now I see it. I was wrong in thinking that ‘under God’ are ‘just words’ " 🙂 > (probability of this happening 10^-1000) Yes, you were right, now I see it. I was wrong in thinking that ‘under God’ are ‘just words’. Furthermore, though it is only in this late hour that I see the error of my ways, I will dedicate my life to the advancement of glorious scientific state Socialiam. Come now, comrade **Polerius**. Set aside your teaching of the proper dialectic, and join me in a rousing chorus of _Internationale’_ Debout! les damnés de la terre! Debout! les forçats de la faim! … 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-kids-recite-the-pledge/250670.md?page=2)