# Why do liberals hate suburbs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965 "2013-07-31T02:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/241 "2013-08-02T17:24:22Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > For one thing, I can’t use my earbuds if I’m driving . . . So what? Doesn’t your car have a stereo? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/242 "2013-08-02T17:30:58Z")
I’d like to know where some of these nightmare ghettos/crime belts are that some of the people in this thread have lived, or live in. Grocery store cashiers behind bulletproof glass? It’s all very Escape-From-New-York-ish. I think 1981 is calling and wants its crime wave back. I do realize that there are a few cities, like Chicago, that have been undergoing serious crime waves recently, but in general American big cities today are much safer than they were a generation ago. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/243 "2013-08-02T17:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Recently my insurance plan invited me to sign up for their mail order pharmacy service–most scripts filled within 7 days and refills within two. I considered: is the pharmacy still .2 miles away from my house? Yes? Then why bother? This one you might want to check on - initially, I thought the same thing but then found out that copays were lower for the mail order. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/244 "2013-08-02T17:54:49Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I’d like to know where some of these nightmare ghettos/crime belts are that some of the people in this thread have lived, or live in. Grocery store cashiers behind bulletproof glass? It’s all very Escape-From-New-York-ish. I think 1981 is calling and wants its crime wave back. > > I do realize that there are a few cities, like Chicago, that have been undergoing serious crime waves recently, but in general American big cities today are much safer than they were a generation ago. I’m sad to say that most of the markets in my neighborhood have bulletproof kiosks for the clerks. It’s changing though. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/245 "2013-08-02T20:21:01Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > This one you might want to check on - initially, I thought the same thing but then found out that copays were lower for the mail order. I’m on lots of pills, and another advantage is that you can get three months worth mail order. However, I still get some pills through the local non-chain pharmacy - since it if I ever need it in an emergency it is very convenient, and how could it stay in business if people like me do mail order only? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/246 "2013-08-02T20:24:11Z")
I’ve only read three pages, but has anyone defined suburbs yet? I live in a town which would probably qualify, not having much of a center, and we are liberal and very diverse. Plus, in my neighborhood at least, there are tons of walkers. I’m not seeing the hate. ---
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/247 "2013-08-02T20:39:47Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I do realize that there are a few cities, like Chicago, that have been undergoing serious crime waves recently This is a myth. Crime in Chicago has been on a steady decline, like in most American cities; 2012 was a bit of an outlier with regard to murder, but at least for the first half of the year, [2013 has been safer than every year since 1965](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/01/chicago-homicide-shooting_n_3530105.html). That’s not to say that there’s no crime problem in Chicago; you’d be wise to avoid much of the South and West sides at night, and occasionally a group of teenagers goes around mugging people on the Mag Mile. Continuing to clean that up should be (and is) very much a priority for the city. But reports of a crime wave have been greatly exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/248 "2013-08-02T21:19:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Which is why I think people are going to stop equating the American Dream with buying a house. Houses are great when you can count on having a job in the same place for decades. But as you say, this simply isn’t the case anymore. It doesn’t make sense for a someone to buy a house when in a year or two, they may be laid off, transferred, or underemployed. > > Especially now that people are really starting to appreciate the value of leisure time. Every minute on the road is one minute less that you can devote to working out at the gym, playing computer games, or watching “Orange is the New Black”. I drive about 25 minutes to work every day in my car, from my quasi-suburban neighborhood. Up to 40 or 45 minutes on bad days. When I lived in New York City, I spent almost exactly the same amount of time going to/from school and work by subway. Please don’t tell me travel by subway was easier, faster or less stressful. The subway was a perfectly adequate way to get around. I didn’t hate it, but I don’t idealize it either. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/249 "2013-08-02T21:24:56Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Um, old folks and disabled folks often CANNOT walk all over the place. Or anywhere. They need a car, even to go downtown in your walkable suburb. ## Cities can be excellent places for disabled folks. My sister was confined to a wheelchair and NYC was the ideal place for her. She could roll out her front door and take buses to within a couple blocks of wherever she wanted to go plus most of those places are wheelchair accessible. She could also get wheelchair tickets to broadway shows pretty easily and drag me along. I’m fairly liberal and grew up in the suburbs and don’t harbor any particular animosity towards them. I had a great childhood running around the woods, fishing, sailing, canoeing, climbing trees, blowing stuff up, lighting things on fire, getting my skin cancer started up, but got seriously stir-crazy when I was a teen. When I consider trading in city life for more square footage though (I have a wife and two 10 year old daughters, a cat, bikes for all, guitars…) the thought of leaving the ease of living here gives me pause. I think I’m the only one in my family who ever even thinks about it. And I’m one of those people who live in the city but don’t really do much city stuff like going to broadway shows, restaurants, and concerts although it’s nice to do once in a while. I’m more of parks and museum kind of guy and I really only go to the Natural history museum and Metropolitan museum of art. Plus I have a stupid-long commute. As far as raising kids goes, I think people sell the city short in this area. We live close to a park with a huge playground and the girls run around with the other kids, play in the sprinkler, have to share and take turns, etc. so they got more than an adequate amount of exercising and socializing and conspiring. It’s so easy to just walk out the door and go wherever, including doctors, dentists, swimming pools, etc. The stroller became the station wagon, carrying all our stuff around and whatever we happen to buy along the way. Of course it’s not like this for everybody but it turned out to be pretty excellent and I love just walking around the city with my daughters (as long as they’re good :D). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/250 "2013-08-02T21:55:33Z")
> [@BorgHunter](#): > > This is a myth. Crime in Chicago has been on a steady decline, like in most American cities; 2012 was a bit of an outlier … And it was an outlier only compared to the last several years - that 506 was the highest in 4 years (2008 was 513) and mostly the last 8 years were in the 400s. In any longer term view it was very low. 1999 to 2003 were all over 600. The 90s all 700s to 900s. Murder rates have been on a pretty steady decline all over and Chicago is not a particularly dangerous city, [on a per capita basis](http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2013/07/chicagocrime.html) even in 2012 Chicago’s murder rate “was 21st in the nation, better than Atlanta, Philadelphia, Baltimore, St. Louis, New Orleans and Detroit, to name a few.” And for violent crime it was down at 43rd. Anyway. Yes demographics are such that urban areas tend to be more Blue and rural Red with suburbs various shades of purple. Yes many suburbs are easy targets for pretentious intellectuals and satirists. McMansion anyone? Stepford Wives? Developments often tend to homogeneity both in architecture and in populus. Easy to mock. Nevertheless the [most liberal community](http://www.epodunk.com/top10/liberal/) in Illinois is not a city but a suburb: Oak Park. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/251 "2013-08-03T00:19:57Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Also, we don’t get snow 🙂 Really? I grew up in North Carolina (Chapel Hill specifically); and I have many fond memories of sledding, making snowmen, and getting several days off school every year for snow days. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/252 "2013-08-03T03:06:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Railroad right-of-ways are good for . . . well, railroad right-of-ways. Also for [biking and hiking trails](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rails_to_trails). (Railroad engineers and cyclists have similar ideas about what constitutes a reasonable gradient.) Amen to that–Illinois Prairie Path (old trolley line so the grades are extra gentle) two blocks south, Great Western Trail (now with a fancy, new overpass over two busy streets and an operational railroad) at the north end of my block, and they also use the Great Western’s right-of-way to pipe Lake Michigan’s tasty water out to the Western Suburbs. Water likes gentle grades, too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/253 "2013-08-03T03:09:20Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Amen to that–Illinois Prairie Path (old trolley line so the grades are extra gentle) two blocks south, Great Western Trail (now with a fancy, new overpass over two busy streets and an operational railroad) at the north end of my block, and they also use the Great Western’s right-of-way to pipe Lake Michigan’s tasty water out to the Western Suburbs. Water likes gentle grades, too. Pardon my ignorance, but are there anything **but** gentle grades out there on the prairie? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/254 "2013-08-03T03:11:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > McMansion anyone? Apropos of nothing, it always boggled and tickled me that Don Corleone lives in a compound – a sort of Royal Palace, with armed guards – and Tony Soprano lives in a suburban McMansion. What, oh what, has become of Their Thing?! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/255 "2013-08-03T05:26:00Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > There was widespread privately owned light rail in several states in the early 20th century. It failed way before the federal government was involved in roads. Just the existence of cars was enough to pound the last nails in. But almost from the beginning, the road infrastructure for cars, trucks, and buses has enjoyed copious support from the public coffers, while the LRT systems were left to rot or deliberately scrapped and replaced with buses. When that happened, people tended to abandon public transit because urban transit buses are a lousy way to get from one end of a 20 mile crosstown route to the other. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/256 "2013-08-03T07:11:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t forget, a lot of immigrants need no one to teach them about staid middle-class family life. Depends on their culture of origin. (And sometimes circumstances of departure. Certainly. Asian families have been quick to adapt with Japanese-Americans in general about as assimilated as possible in American society. > [@](#): > > I recall reading in Michael Barone’s _The New Americans_ that in 19th Century America, there were a lot of Irish prostitutes and practically no Italian prostitutes. That was not because Italian women are any chaster, it was because the Italians came over in families and the Irish as atomized famine-refugees with no family support networks.) I find this rather surprising since I used to think a lot of Italians who came were young men or women looking to make some money before going back to the home country as opposed to the Irish who were fleeing from a famine and British rule. > [@](#): > > Aren’t local political machines pretty much a thing of the past in America? I’d say its still powerful in some cities even if there’s less outright patronage then in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/257 "2013-08-03T07:12:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Really? I grew up in North Carolina (Chapel Hill specifically); and I have many fond memories of sledding, making snowmen, and getting several days off school every year for snow days. I grew up in Upstate New York, my definition of “snow” is a little different 🙂 That said, Charlotte gets less snowfall than the Raleigh area. A quick Googling shows Raleigh averaging 7.6 inches versus Charlotte’s 5.8, and I think the last few years (I’ve only been here 5) have been pretty light. Checking the same website, I’m seeing 0 inches for 2011/2012, but we have had 2.7 inches so far in 2013. For comparison, my hometown averages around 60. [http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/avgsnowfall.html](http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/avgsnowfall.html) ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/258 "2013-08-03T07:17:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I grew up in New York City. I now live in a quasi-suburban neighborhood in Austin, TX. I say “quasi-suburban” because it’s technically well within the city limits, but is indistinguishable in most respects from a suburb (single family homes, car-oriented, lots of strip malls). > > So I feel qualified to say… the notion that cities are more “diverse” than suburbs is ludicrous. > > My current neighborhood and the local school that my son goes to are the kinds of place that liberal hipsters sneer at as “lily-white.” And yet, byu ANY standard, there is FAR more ethnic, religious, and socio-economic diversity in my quasi-suburban neighborhood than I ever saw in New York City. > > You scoff, no doubt. New York has millions of black people, and millions of Jews, right? But I never knew or met any of them. My neighborhood and my church were overwhelmingly Irish and Italian when I was growing up. As time went by, there were a LOT more Greeks, but since they weren’t Catholic and didn’t go to Catholic schools, I rarely saw them or interacted with them. Until I went to college, at least 90% of the people I dealt with every day were Irish or Italian. > > By contrast, my 9 year old son has had classmates and friends of almost every ethnicity and religion. At his backyard birthday parties, we’ve had Korean, Salvadoran, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, African-American, Iranian, Indian, Mexican and Jewish kids. Our “lily-white” suburban neighborhood offers my son a hell of a lot more diversity than my old blue-collar urban neighborhood ever offered me. Good old Austin, Texas! You know, Houston is a lot like Austin, as regards your comments about racial diversity. I know, I was born here, 52 years ago. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/259 "2013-08-03T11:47:50Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I grew up in Upstate New York, my definition of “snow” is a little different 🙂 > > That said, Charlotte gets less snowfall than the Raleigh area. A quick Googling shows Raleigh averaging 7.6 inches versus Charlotte’s 5.8, and I think the last few years (I’ve only been here 5) have been pretty light. Checking the same website, I’m seeing 0 inches for 2011/2012, but we have had 2.7 inches so far in 2013. For comparison, my hometown averages around 60. > > [http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/avgsnowfall.html](http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/avgsnowfall.html) It may be global warming, too. We often spent Christmases in inland Maine (by Moosehead Lake); and I later moved to Duluth, MN, where there is plenty of snow (average of 83 inches per year–but no snow days off school, alas, as they are too good at clearing it). So I do know what snow is all about. Anyway…snowdrifting off topic, so: suburbs suck! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/260 "2013-08-03T12:15:35Z")
I am a liberal, and I wouldn’t live in a big city even if every apartment came with free hookers and blow. The don’t, do they…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=14)