# Why do liberals hate suburbs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965 "2013-07-31T02:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/281 "2013-08-04T19:13:04Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > … Within Western environmentalism there definitely has been a school of thought that tends to disparage big cities as centers of pollution and consumption… Not among those who actually have ever looked at the data. [Cities are the most environmentally friendly places to live.](http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2069319,00.html) > [@](#): > > … the greenest place in America is New York City — specifically, the overcrowded, overpriced and sometimes overwrought island of Manhattan, which has a per-capita greenhouse gas footprint less than 30% that of the national average. > > It’s that density — the sheer number of people living in such a small area, often literally on top of each other — that makes Manhattan, and New York City as a whole, so green. Manhattan’s population density is 800 times the national average. Density comes with negatives, certainly — small living spaces, air pollution, lots and lots of concrete — but it also enables amazing efficiencies. More than 80% of Manhattanites travel to work by public transit, by bike or on foot — compared to an average of about 8% everywhere else in the country. The vertical apartment buildings that Manhattanites live in are far more energy-efficient than single-dwelling housing in the suburbs. “Most Americans, including most New Yorkers, think of New York City as an ecological nightmare, a wasteland of concrete and garbage and diesel fumes and traffic jams,” wrote David Owen in his 2009 book Green Metropolis. “But in comparison with the rest of America it’s a model of environmental responsibility.” > > What’s true of New York City is true of other American urban areas, albeit to a lesser degree, which is why a growing part of the environmental movement now focuses on greening cities, with the hope of attracting more Americans back downtown and reversing suburban flight. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/282 "2013-08-04T19:23:22Z")
This just in: local conservative editorial writer says that the Metropolitan Council of the Twin Cities (MN) is planning to impose its vision of dense urbanization on the region. In particular, the article claims that the Met Council’s goal is to prevent suburbs from seceding their middle/upper income residents and their tax base from the inner cities, and that the Met Council will have the power to squelch the growth of any suburb that doesn’t go along: > **[OPINION EXCHANGE | Twin Cities suburbs should beware of the Met Council](https://www.startribune.com/twin-cities-suburbs-should-beware-of-the-met-council/218173402/)** > > Crusaders for 'regionalism' want a more concentrated, centrally planned Twin Cities. Those who don't may never know what hit them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/283 "2013-08-05T00:10:39Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > This just in: local conservative editorial writer says that the Metropolitan Council of the Twin Cities (MN) is planning to impose its vision of dense urbanization on the region. In particular, the article claims that the Met Council’s goal is to prevent suburbs from seceding their middle/upper income residents and their tax base from the inner cities, and that the Met Council will have the power to squelch the growth of any suburb that doesn’t go along: > [http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/218173402.html](http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/218173402.html) > [@](#): > > Regional planning of service delivery and infrastructure is important, of course. But “regionalism,” as an ideology, is not, as its name suggests, about promoting the good of a region as a whole. It’s about metro centers — the urban core and inner-ring suburbs — usurping control over outer-ring communities to advance their own interests and, in the process, effectively replacing local elected officials with a handful of regional governments. > > In the case of the Twin Cities, the ramifications for democratic self-rule are profound. The Met Council’s 17 members are not elected. Though they come from different parts of the seven-county area, they don’t represent the needs and interests of voters there. They are all appointed by Gov. Mark Dayton, and they owe their allegiance to him. So replace it with an elected metropolitan government. The outer-ring communities would get to vote in it too. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/284 "2013-08-05T01:48:00Z")
Thank you for posting this. I used to live in Minneapolis and many of my in-laws live in the Twin Cities 'burbs. It’s funny to me that no matter how negatively this writer spins it, even though her article is the only source of information I have on this plan, it sounds fucking _awesome_. Like, I’m drooling and thinking it might not be so bad to move back there one day, even with the horrible winters (and hey, maybe global warming can help out there). ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/285 "2013-08-05T13:35:24Z")
Following up on the Sopranos: The NY guys say of the Jersey based Soprano family that they “are a glorified crew” when considering taking them out. They planned to take out the leaders (Tony, Silvio and Bobbie) and fold the rest of the organization into their family. The NY families considered themselves the “real” families. Also, help me out here. I can never figure out what a McMansion is supposed to be. Usually when you dig, the translation is “house nicer then mine”. Is Tony’s house a McMansion? To me it just looks like a nice suburban house. Upper middle class, but not boxy or garish looking like the examples on the McMansions wikipedia page. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/286 "2013-08-05T14:35:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Also, help me out here. I can never figure out what a McMansion is supposed to be. Usually when you dig, the translation is “house nicer then mine”. Is Tony’s house a McMansion? To me it just looks like a nice suburban house. Upper middle class, but not boxy or garish looking like the examples on the McMansions wikipedia page. What makes it a “McMansion” is that 1) it kindasorta tries to look like a mansion and 2) like any 2-bedroom in Levittown, clearly it was built at the same time by the same developer as all the others in the PUD. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/287 "2013-08-05T14:40:49Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Following up on the Sopranos: The NY guys say of the Jersey based Soprano family that they “are a glorified crew” when considering taking them out. They planned to take out the leaders (Tony, Silvio and Bobbie) and fold the rest of the organization into their family. > > The NY families considered themselves the “real” families. > > Also, help me out here. I can never figure out what a McMansion is supposed to be. Usually when you dig, the translation is “house nicer then mine”. Is Tony’s house a McMansion? To me it just looks like a nice suburban house. Upper middle class, but not boxy or garish looking like the examples on the McMansions wikipedia page. Hadn’t thought about it before, but although boxy, garish (often a mishmash of architectural styles) are often features of McMansions, the defining characteristic in the Western suburbs is that the house is far too large for the lot and often too large for itself if you see what I mean. Sometimes it’s the aftermath of a tear-down but not always. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/288 "2013-08-05T14:46:23Z")
McMansion to me means a house that is ridiculously large, especially in relation to the size of the lot that it sits on, and that is part of a large development of similar McMansions that all kind of look alike. As mentioned, they are garish and a mish-mash of styles that don’t really fit into their environment. ETA: the Wikipedia article on McMansions actually mentions Tony Sopranos house as an example of a McMansion: [McMansion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcmansion) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/289 "2013-08-05T15:38:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Thank you for posting this. I used to live in Minneapolis and many of my in-laws live in the Twin Cities 'burbs. It’s funny to me that no matter how negatively this writer spins it, even though her article is the only source of information I have on this plan, it sounds fucking _awesome_. Like, I’m drooling and thinking it might not be so bad to move back there one day, even with the horrible winters (and hey, maybe global warming can help out there). Take it to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698557), then. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/290 "2013-08-05T19:12:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No cite, but I did once read that, adjusted per capita, there is actually far **more** violent crime in rural than urban areas (nothing said of the suburbs). I think you read it wrong. Here’s the [FBI UCR Table 16](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_16_rate_number_of_crimes_per_100000_inhabitants_by_population_group_2011.xls) The cliff notes are that large cities, in general, are the most violent places in America. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/291 "2013-08-05T20:07:58Z")
Although, as I noted in post 193, cities seem to be the safest places in America despite higher levels of violence. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/292 "2013-08-05T22:39:34Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Although, as I noted in post 193, cities seem to be the safest places in America despite higher levels of violence. BrainGlutton and I were referring specifically to violent crime. The Time article from #193 focuses on one tiny slice of violent crimes (homicides) and the much broader range of injury _deaths_. I don’t dispute it’s findings, but I am noting that it ignores all the other horrible violent crimes that are mostly an affliction of large cities: aggravated assault, robbery, and rape. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/293 "2013-08-05T23:25:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think you read it wrong. Here’s the [FBI UCR Table 16](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_16_rate_number_of_crimes_per_100000_inhabitants_by_population_group_2011.xls) > > The cliff notes are that large cities, in general, are the most violent places in America. Interesting though that the largest cities, those over a million, which includes everything larger than San Jose, have significantly lower violent crime and murder rates than cities 250,000 to 999,999 big. And lower rape rates than all other city sizes other than 10,000 to 24,999. Yes, suburbs and non-metropolitian counties are lower yet. And I think you misread the study that was cited by **madmonk28**. [Here’s another take](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130724-surprising-facts-cities-safer-rural-areas-injury-deaths/) of the same study. Increased rural death rates from accidents and suicide just cause more deaths than do the increased violent crime deaths. Complaining that violent crime not causing death is not included in that study? Then also factor in accidental injuries not causing death. [One study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20230166) for that placed an excess of about 800/100K injury related hospitalizations in rural areas. Compared to an excess of 9/100K rapes in urban areas and 244/100K aggravared assaults comparing the 250K plus cities to suburban areas. (Less is using all cities; slightly more if using nonmetropolitian counties.) ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/294 "2013-08-06T02:01:30Z")
After all this, I’m still not entirely sure what “liberals hate suburbs” means, let alone whether it’s the case. I suppose liberals tend to support cities and don’t particularly care (either way) whether that’s at the expense of suburbs, but I’m not sure it typically is anyway. I do think that liberals are more prone to react to urban blight by fixing it (or getting the government to fix it, but liberals also think that the government’s advantage in harnessing resources and bringing them to bear on problems is a good thing) and conservatives by moving, Also, when I say “I don’t like suburbs,” I’m thinking of bedroom suburbs: the cupboard where the kid with the Big City playset puts the action figures at bedtime. No sidewalks, restrictive zoning, chain restaurants, etc. Cheeverville. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Why? At heart, all liberals love “Central Planning” it is the same mentality that gave the world “collective farms”, and ministries of planning. Liberals love to control people-and you cannot do that if the proles have their own houses and cars- you need to herd them all into “public housing projects”-where they can experience the benefits of collective conciousness, and class solidarity! All hail the people! > Funny how the rich liberals do not want to experience these benefits for themselves! (THEY live in mansions out in the country). > [@MrDibble](#): > > This whole misguided spiel is particularly rich in irony given the origin of post-war American Dream Suburbia in the very-much centrally-planned Levittowns. Yeah, the organic development of (well-run) urban areas is the opposite of central planning. (I don’t think I have a cohesive opinion about central planning, but I certainly don’t have a knee-jerk repulsion about the words “central planning” that extends to any actual thing someone chooses to attach to it.) > [@pullin](#): > > \*One of the quotes: _The suburbs are bland, sterile wastelands filled with racist white people who work soul-crushing jobs to buy electronics and uncreative landscaping._ See, I don’t think that’s really true, but at the same time I think racist white people who are content with bland, sterile wastelands, and accepting of or at least resigned to soul-crushing jobs and uncreative landscaping, are going to feel more at home in (certain) suburban areas than in, say, Brownsville. Or SoHo. And I’ll be honest, I tend to assume white people who dislike cities (which is obviously not all people who live in suburbs) are racist – though I can certainly be persuaded otherwise. > [@Chimera](#): > > Of course they do, and few people take [the Sierra Club] seriously. Agreed on Kurtz and CMEC, but this is just no-true-Scotsman. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If a liberal is living in a urban community instead of a “way cheaper” suburb, that liberal is exactly who I am talking about. I look askance at an individual who is able to afford more expensive housing than presumably working class folks in the suburbs, yet classifies his or her position as a “low” earner. > > If you can afford to live in one of these mini liberal oases in a large American city, I’m happy for you. This, on the other hand, is circular. “If you’re a liberal, you don’t live in the real City, you live in the nice part; Cities are shitholes, so if where you live isn’t a shithole, it doesn’t count. Therefore, liberals who claim to like cities are hypocrites.” > [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not attacking the pollsters, I’m saying the citation doesn’t support the point. ‘ number of people think Obama is more liberal than they are’ doesn’t prove Obama is a liberal because it doesn’t define what liberal means. I don’t know if there really is a Platonic “what it means” (where “it”=“liberal” or “conservative” or anything else). If Obama were more liberal than 59 percent of the population, I think saying “yeah, but that’s because they’re conservative” is semantic nitpicking. Now, whether some or all of the people who consider Obama more liberal than themselves are thinking of the real Obama or an Obama in their heads is a question worth asking (though, as you say, not here), but it’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/295 "2013-08-06T03:31:54Z")
In my experience, suburbs are mostly inhabited by liberals, and rural areas are conservative. There is a big difference between rural and suburban living. Might be a regional thing. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/296 "2013-08-06T04:15:08Z")
Well by your user name you may have a different, more 18th century, definition of ‘liberal’ than is common usage today, too. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/297 "2013-08-06T15:02:19Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > In my experience, suburbs are mostly inhabited by liberals, and rural areas are conservative. There is a big difference between rural and suburban living. Might be a regional thing. It depends where you are. People think of Texas as a red state, and it is… but the big cities are generally Democratic Party strongholds. Houston and Dallas and San Antonio always have Democrat mayors, often liberal ones. Now, the suburbs SURROUNDING Houston and Dallas tend to be very conservative. But the cities themselves? Much more liberal than outsiders think. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/298 "2013-08-06T18:04:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It depends where you are. > > People think of Texas as a red state, and it is… but the big cities are generally Democratic Party strongholds. Houston and Dallas and San Antonio always have Democrat mayors, often liberal ones. > > Now, the suburbs SURROUNDING Houston and Dallas tend to be very conservative. But the cities themselves? Much more liberal than outsiders think. Contrarily, the suburbs of San Francisco are almost as liberal as the main city, and the suburbs of Los Angeles vary from very conservative to very liberal. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/299 "2013-08-06T18:06:27Z")
I consider myself more of a moderate Democrat or centrist although I do take some very liberal positions on certain social issues. Like others who have posted in this thread, I do not think the OP has much merit - “liberals” do not hate the suburbs and nothing posted yet even remotely supports that broad-brush statement. For me, I live in an urban neighborhood adjacent to our downtown and I love it. I have also lived in the suburbs of our city for many, many years before moving into the inner city. Here is why I like the urban environment better: [ul] [li]Connection with History - My neighborhood was one of the founding neighborhoods in this city’s development. I am surrounded by homes built by the early industrialists and merchants. The suburbs just do not have this connection.[/li] [li]Diversity - In architecture, socio-economic backgrounds, in professions, in sexual orientations, in race. It is quite a varied neighborhood. My friends in the suburbs may have the professional diversity but otherwise just about everyone is the same. The houses in their neighborhoods are the same, their jobs/income levels are relatively aligned, and their almost all heterosexual and married.[/li] [li]Community - This neighborhood has an amazing sense of community. I’ve never known and become friends with so many people in any previous neighborhood I lived in. There are certainly “mind my own business” types here too but there is this incredibly vibrant backbone of people who support each other and share in the trials and tribulations of living in a neighborhood such as this. I could not even tell you the name of my neighbors in my last home in the suburbs and I lived there 5+ years.[/li] [li]Food - I like food. Love it actually. I’m happy to say there is not a single “chain” restaurant nearby - i.e. Applebees, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, etc. The closest we have is a Wendy’s that went in nearby several years back and it was fought tooth-and-nail at that time. Now, I love me a cheeseburger and fries so I don’t mind hitting the drive-thru but the concentration of excellent restaurants in the downtown and surrounding areas is unmatched anywhere in the city. Whether you want 4-5 star, casual or hip, or a pub/tavern environment, it is all right here.[/li] [li]Architecture - Mentioned it in diversity but you just cannot beat the combination of styles: gothic, four square, queen anne, italianette, etc., that are all over this neighborhood.[/li] [li]Proximity - I’m walking/cycling distance (2 miles) to the middle of downtown. I have easy access to all freeways that serve the city. Libraries, museums, festivals, entertainment districts, sporting events, grocery and pharmacy, and parks are all in “my backyard” and accessible by a less than 15 minute bike ride at the longest. A 5 minute car ride if needed.[/li] [/ul] So yeah, that is my two cents on this topic. I would add a bunch of things I don’t like about the suburbs but I don’t think it is necessary at this point. MeanJoe ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/300 "2013-08-06T18:32:12Z")
Once again, the suburbs represent capitalism…messy, unfair (to a certain extent), but places that give people choices over their lives. Marxist /liberals hate them, because: -you cannot control people who are busy making their homes and building their neighborhoods -the freedom to move means that the power of central planners is reduced-can’t have that! -suburbs control their own school systems-this makes them intractable to central planning Yes, it is correct to say that allowing people to live where they want eroded the wealth of the cities. But ask yourself-would Detroit be a nice place today, if everybody still lived there? In my opinion, people did not leave Detroit because it had great schools, low crime rates, and good job opportunities, etc.:smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=16)