# Why do liberals hate suburbs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965 "2013-07-31T02:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/361 "2013-08-08T03:25:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The earth has seen worse, but the earth doesn’t really care about much, does it? I think the worries here are about the adjustments humans will have to deal with. > > I do think it’s pretty funny that basic urban planning is apparently some assault on freedom, but telling people how many kids to have is totally reasonable. I assume that is directed at me. I am a moderate libertarian so I would not ever truly support a limit on the number of children people can have in a political sense. From a scientific standpoint however, I truly believe that overpopulation is exactly the core problem and fixing that is the only thing that would work if it was possible at all. Everything else is just a child’s Band-Aid on a chainsaw injury. That is why I don’t support most Progressive type urban measures when it comes to the environment. I like the environment too even more than most in a realistic way but the proposed measure are just like bailing out Titanic with a spoon only so people can pat themselves on the back and control others while India and China spew fossil fuels in a more globally polluting way than we ever would in the U.S. if we burned them ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/362 "2013-08-08T04:17:19Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Can you break it down into a more unified plan for all metropolitan areas that will have a sum total of greater benefits than unintended negative consequences? I think I have already been doing just that, as well as endorsing other plans posted by **Brain Glutton** and what’s being done in the Twin Cities. I also have long had an admiration for Portland Oregon’s anti-sprawl urban growth boundary (UGB). ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/363 "2013-08-08T05:21:19Z")
I wonder if the people saying all sorts of nasty things about City Folk even recognize that it’s coming off as a code word, even if that’s not the intent. > [@ralph124c](#): > > -suburbs control their own school systems-this makes them intractable to central planning > [@Shagnasty](#): > > There are people that live in Manhattan or Boston proper that practically never go further than 10 miles away from home unless there are exceptional circumstances for example and that is little different from a 19th century farmer in terms of overall community or world experience. > > I don’t want them deciding anything about my kid’s schools Is public education a thing that only exists in cities? How are less-well-off suburbanites’ children educated? > [@madmonk28](#): > > I find it odd that some people seem to think that cities are these oppressive planned societies when it is the suburbs that have the reputation for stultifying conformity M3 T00, I’m not sure what actual cities (as opposed to allegedly utopian dreams by futurists) that is in reference to. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/364 "2013-08-08T05:32:17Z")
Well according to some of the suburbanites, the appeal is to live with people “like them” and to get away from “gangs”, I wouldn’t call it a dog whistle so much as a dog bullhorn. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/365 "2013-08-08T13:36:14Z")
…and here comes the accusations of racism. How predictable. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/366 "2013-08-08T14:09:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …and here comes the accusations of racism. How predictable. > > :rolleyes: And? Technically the problem may be broader than racism, inasmuch as racism is the belief that there are innate and immutable biological differences between different “races” of people, that produce a hierarchy. Even so, do you think the accusations are unfounded? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/367 "2013-08-08T14:16:09Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The only hope on a worldwide scale to switch electric power plants and fleet vehicles over to some type natural gas power over the next 15 years. That wouldn’t help much. NG is just another fossil fuel, also of limited and nonrenewable supply, also adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere when burnt. And, unlike petroleum, good for nothing **but** burning, so far as I know. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > If you are truly Progressive and care about Mother Earth that much, it would be much more effective to limit future births . . . How? There is no world government with the power to impose a Chinese-style “one child” policy, and not likely to be. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I have news for you though. Mother Earth has seen much worse and will recover just fine no matter what we do or don’t do. Everything in between is just about human lifestyle choices. Oh, the Earth will still be here. The question is what happens to the **people.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/368 "2013-08-08T14:17:39Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …and here comes the accusations of racism. How predictable. > > :rolleyes: You can’t seriously believe that irrelevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/369 "2013-08-08T14:46:44Z")
So the family that moves from the city to the suburb because they are willing to commute further in order to get more house and more space for less money are racists. Got it. The inability to recognize that certain people want and value different things without being racist is absurd. I don’t know if it’s liberals, conservatives, or whatever group as a whole, but it is clearly obvious that some folks prefer to live in the suburbs. I would say the majority of parents would prefer to raise their kids _not_ in the city (no cite) so much that’s moving out of the city after you have kids is the stereotype. But I guess parents as a group are just racist. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/370 "2013-08-08T15:03:10Z")
**Bone** , in another thread you recently identified yourself as a white male Texan, married with kids, who is considering fleeing the city of Dallas and its schools with “90 percent reduced school lunches” and made the following complaint: > [@](#): > > by God, they’ll pay for poor people’s house renovations in Fair Park, or they’ll put in rec-centers in south Dallas, or any number of other low-income projects that don’t benefit me, mine or anyone else in my neighborhood, except maybe the Section 8 jerks that seem to blight my area of town So let me ask you: are those poor people in Fair Park white? I have never been to Texas, and I can’t seem to find demographic information online, but I do notice there’s an African American museum there. What about “south Dallas”? A little Googling seems to indicate that it is historically where the black population was segregated, and where the “Negro schools” used to be. I’m guessing it’s still mostly African American. What about those “Section 8 jerks”? Are they white? And the kids on reduced school lunch? They mostly white, or black? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/371 "2013-08-08T15:29:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Bone** , in another thread **you recently identified yourself** as a white male Texan, married with kids, who is considering fleeing the city of Dallas and its schools with “90 percent reduced school lunches” and made the following complaint: … Like with so many other things, you are wrong. Check your facts. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/372 "2013-08-08T15:47:29Z")
Is the slang term “urban” to mean black person or black culture still in use? I last heard it from, er, suburban teenagers, which generally means that a pop phrase is in its death throes. But it was as I recall used as a code word in marketing for a while–and the fact that it worked as such demonstrates that there are still very real racial factors in the city/suburban divide. I first heard it when the kids’ marching in a St. Patrick’s Day parade was under discussion at my daughter’s dance class. The debate was whether to take part in the South Side parade in Chicago or a large one held in a nearby suburb and I could not understand why some of the moms were objecting to having the kids around “urban” people. One finally took pity upon me and explained they meant “black.” I don’t of course maintain that the desire to live in the suburbs is always or mostly rooted in racism, but it’s silly to pretend that a substantial number of suburbanites (many of whom belong to families that became suburban during the white flight years) don’t think that way. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/373 "2013-08-08T16:09:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Like with so many other things, you are wrong. Check your facts. Sorry, **Bone**. I do sincerely apologise, although I will say in my defense that the person I confused you with is not only arguing on your same general side but also has a four letter screen name starting with B. So are you implicitly acknowledging that his posts seem to have a racist bent, while denying that yours do? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/374 "2013-08-08T16:12:56Z")
Again, no. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/375 "2013-08-08T16:18:38Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …and here comes the accusations of racism. How predictable. > > :rolleyes: I find it funny how the same individuals constantly defend themselves from various people calling them racist so often that it actually becomes their defense. “I can’t be racist, I was just CALLED racist!” I never thought I’d find a worse excuse than “but I have a black friend!”, but there we have it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/376 "2013-08-08T16:19:20Z")
Then **Bone** , what was the real problem with my conflating his POV with yours? And how can you deny the obvious racial connotations of what I quoted? ETA: Well said, **Rogerbox**! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/377 "2013-08-08T16:31:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then **Bone** , what was the real problem with my conflating his POV with yours? And how can you deny the obvious racial connotations of what I quoted? For me to deny something, you’ll first have to demonstrate what it is I’m supposed to deny - the obvious racial connotations. You haven’t met the first hurdle. Here’s the fact pattern that a lot of parents face: [ul] [li]They want a school environment where learning and curriculum is the primary focus[/li][li]They want a cheaper and larger house for a growing family[/li][li]They want more space in the form of a yard for their kids to play while easily supervised[/li][li]They want less traffic so playing in the streets is safer[/li][li]They want areas with lower crime for the safety of their family[/li][/ul] Which of those are racist? Hint: none. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/378 "2013-08-08T16:37:07Z")
**Why do liberals hate suburbs?** Rows of houses that are all the same. And no one seems to care! ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/379 "2013-08-08T16:52:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …and here comes the accusations of racism. How predictable. > > :rolleyes: If they are not true, one can avoid them by not saying things that sound racist. If they are true, I don’t care what one thinks of them. > [@Bone](#): > > So the family that moves from the city to the suburb because they are willing to commute further in order to get more house and more space for less money are racists. Got it. No, but the family that moves from the city to the suburb because they don’t want their children around the sort of people you find in the city, you know, Those People, you know who I mean, certainly sound racist. > [@Bone](#): > > The inability to recognize that certain people want and value different things without being racist is absurd. Now let’s see if a similar notion occurs to people who claim that only a totalitarian impulse could motivate people to claim to want to live in the city ETA > [@Bone](#): > > They want a school environment where learning and curriculum is the primary focus Still not seeing why you need to go to the suburbs for that ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/380 "2013-08-08T16:55:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So the family that moves from the city to the suburb because they are willing to commute further in order to get more house and more space for less money are racists. Got it. Are you willing to concede that _some_ portion of white flight is motivated by race? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=20)