# Why do liberals hate suburbs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965 "2013-07-31T02:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/541 "2013-08-17T15:45:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I was explaining something that you purported not to understand - the difference between entitlement programs, and sending your son or daughter to public schools. IOW your beliefs about conservative attitudes was mistaken. > > Regards, > Shodan Sorry, I mistakenly thought you were espousing that view rather than explaining that they are held by some conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/542 "2013-08-17T17:13:24Z")
> [@huck](#): > > Sorry, I mistakenly thought you were espousing that view rather than explaining that they are held by some conservatives. I’m not sure what you mean. Conservatives do not object to poor people sending their children to public schools. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/543 "2013-08-17T17:53:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So…wow. You are saying that by sending my kids to public school, I am doing something roughly equivalent to failing to provide them with “ample and nourishing meals” or dressing them in dirty, ill-fitting, threadbare clothing? Do you not realise how that sounds? Jesus fucking Christ. For someone who IIRC earlier claimed he’d always scored above 99% of other students on every standerized tests he’d taken you seem to be dramatically misreading what people are saying. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/544 "2013-08-17T18:24:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean. Conservatives do not object to poor people sending their children to public schools. > > Regards, > Shodan I would hope not. I merely meant that if the reason for objecting to people who qualify for assistance accepting said assistance is that they don’t pay taxes, then logically the same people should not be allowed to take advantage of free public education either. However, some conservatives object strongly to poor folks sending their kids to \*their \*public schools, at least based on many statements I have heard from friends of my sister in law, who lives in an affluent suburb with an excellent school system. The idea seems to be that the kids from what these conservatives refer to as “Little Margaritaville” (a small area within the town’s limits where many Hispanic and Chicano families live) should be sent to a neighboring, poorer school system, so as not to divert tax money from their own kids. These same folks call another suburb not far away “West Chicano” and think themselves very witty, so I do not offer them as examples of the best and brightest of conservatives. But they’re out there, and they are well-educated people you’d expect to know and think better. I realize I digress, but then most of this thread is digression… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/545 "2013-08-17T20:13:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For someone who IIRC earlier claimed he’d always scored above 99% of other students on every standerized tests he’d taken you seem to be dramatically misreading what people are saying. It is a common pattern here, especially among those who claim to score very high on standardized test (most infamously in the IQ threads.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/546 "2013-08-17T20:49:13Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Well obviously housing the poor all together in gigantic concrete buildings doesn’t work, so maybe there IS something to having the poor dispersed amongst the middle class instead of ghettoized? Yes, absolutely. I tend to resist the claim, often pushed by the right, that the Great Society was an “abject failure” or whatever. But that part of it–the public housing skyrises–was indeed a spectacular failure, and it really does point to the dispersion approach being a much better idea to pursue. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For someone who IIRC earlier claimed he’d always scored above 99% of other students on every standerized tests he’d taken you seem to be dramatically misreading what people are saying. No, because that was a clear implication of what he said, even if he doesn’t want to stand behind it when challenged. Let’s review: **SlackerInc** : > [@](#): > > I just find this “me and mine” attitude abhorrent. It’s all the more unconscionable in fact if the private schools do provide a better education. To me, it strikes me as I would hope it would strike most people if there were different tiers of police or fire protection. Like anyone could call 911 and wait around for the publicly funded ambulance, fire engine, or squad car to arrive; but if you paid extra for “911 plus” coverage, you could call a special number to get deluxe service. Blech. **Huck** : > [@](#): > > Seriously? You think it is abhorrent that I sent my kids to the best possible schools I could manage for them? > > Is it also abhorrent that I provide ample and nourishing meals for them, and make sure that they have clean clothes that fit them and are in good repair? Okay, so \*\*huck \*\*is saying that paying to send one’s children to private school instead of public school is comparable to paying to “provide ample and nourishing meals for them, and make sure that they have clean clothes that fit them and are in good repair”. Right? But the comparison can only work if the other choice is something different from that (because no one is denying that there is a difference between public and private school). So the only reasonable inference is that if sending his kids to private school is like providing them with good nutrition and clean, well-fitting clothes that are in good repair, failing to send them to private school must be like failing to provide children those things. If this is a “dramatic misreading”, please explain in a specific, logical manner how so. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/547 "2013-08-17T21:04:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Worse” is very subjective. What I am saying is that on average, they have significantly smaller budgets per student, use uncertified teachers who are paid less than public school teachers. Yet they are still attractive enough to get many parents to pay tuition to send their kids there instead of sending them to the public schools for free. > > So the question is, why? That is where the debate comes in. That’s easy. Per-student budget and underpaid, uncertificated teachers aren’t the entire story of education. Frequently the private schools have a more demanding curriculum, more devoted teachers, more required parent-teacher interaction, and most importantly, the recognition of the fact that if you’re paying above and beyond property taxes to educate your children, you will be more involved and expect more out of those children than otherwise. That’s why private schools are attractive; they don’t have to fuck around with the lowest common denominator who doesn’t value education or want to be there. As to why public schools aren’t attractive, it’s because they have to be all things to all people; babysitting for parents who don’t give a shit, academically vibrant to G&T students, adequate to normal students, do well on standardized tests to the state, and try and bring up underperforming kids from households that don’t value education. If you want your kid to be as academically successful as possible, you want to put your child in an environment that will foster that, and the local school where 50% of the kids are on free lunch and in ESL or remedial classes isn’t that environment. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/548 "2013-08-17T21:07:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s easy. Per-student budget and underpaid, uncertificated teachers aren’t the entire story of education. > > Frequently the private schools have a more demanding curriculum, more devoted teachers, more required parent-teacher interaction, and most importantly, the recognition of the fact that if you’re paying above and beyond property taxes to educate your children, you will be more involved and expect more out of those children than otherwise. > > That’s why private schools are attractive; they don’t have to fuck around with the lowest common denominator who doesn’t value education or want to be there. But that’s not “easy”. You can’t, if you have any kind of scientifically rigourous mind, rule out the possibility that a cherry-picked group of students like that would do just as well in most public schools. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/549 "2013-08-17T21:32:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, absolutely. I tend to resist the claim, often pushed by the right, that the Great Society was an “abject failure” or whatever. But that part of it–the public housing skyrises–was indeed a spectacular failure, and it really does point to the dispersion approach being a much better idea to pursue. > > No, because that was a clear implication of what he said, even if he doesn’t want to stand behind it when challenged. Let’s review: > > **SlackerInc** : > > **Huck** : > > Okay, so \*\*huck \*\*is saying that paying to send one’s children to private school instead of public school is comparable to paying to “provide ample and nourishing meals for them, and make sure that they have clean clothes that fit them and are in good repair”. Right? But the comparison can only work if the other choice is something different from that (because no one is denying that there is a difference between public and private school). So the only reasonable inference is that if sending his kids to private school is like providing them with good nutrition and clean, well-fitting clothes that are in good repair, failing to send them to private school must be like failing to provide children those things. > > If this is a “dramatic misreading”, please explain in a specific, logical manner how so. Oy. One more time–I did not back down when challenged, I explained what I really meant, and apologized for the inference that could be drawn from what I said. The idea that public school is equivalent to not feeding and clothing your kids adequately would be utterly bizarre and alien to me. Therefore, I did not realize that someone who didn’t know me could draw such an inference from what I said. Slacker doesn’t know me (doesn’t even know I’m a “she”) and stranger ideas than the one he thought I was expressing have been posted on this board. There is no inference to be drawn about Slacker’s test scores from this miscommunication. I’m not sure why he won’t take me at my word at this point, but then again I guess he doesn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/550 "2013-08-18T01:52:40Z")
Huck, my argument there was mainly with Ibn over his “dramatic misreading” charge and the general insinuation about my intellectual faculties. ETA: Sorry I took you for a “he”, although you do have to admit this is likely to happen often with a handle like “huck”! ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/551 "2013-08-18T03:22:47Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Okay since you obviously took such tripe seriously: > > 1. What percentage of progressives do you think own fixed speed bikes? (aka “fixies”) > > 2. What percentage of progressives do you think cash checks from inheritances, and how is it a pre-requisite of progressivism to intentionally not be thankful for it if you do? > > **Shagnasty** was describing “Progressivism 101”, so those things must be fundamental to progressivism and quite widespread right? So, no? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/552 "2013-08-18T05:37:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Huck, my argument there was mainly with Ibn over his “dramatic misreading” charge and the general insinuation about my intellectual faculties. I made no insinuation. I merely said that for a person who claimed to score so highly on repeated standardized tests(the top 1%) you seemed to show a below average ability to understand what people were saying. I have no doubt you’re correct when you claim to be a genius since I know a former professor at Yale and a current professor at Rutgers who haven’t scored so well on standardized tests. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/553 "2013-08-18T05:40:43Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > So, no? Meh. It’s always fun to make your opponents into strawmen. ---
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/554 "2013-08-18T06:27:38Z")
Why do conservatives like it? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/555 "2013-08-18T07:05:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Meh. > > It’s always fun to make your opponents into strawmen. Not for me in particular, but I just would like an admission that that’s what it was. But I’m not allowed on this forum to call it what I think it really was. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/556 "2013-08-18T15:52:31Z")
> [@slm2955](#): > > Why do conservatives like it? It’s hardly just conservatives who engage in strawman arguments. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/557 "2013-08-18T23:32:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I made no insinuation. I merely said that for a person who claimed to score so highly on repeated standardized tests(the top 1%) you seemed to show a below average ability to understand what people were saying. > > I have no doubt you’re correct when you claim to be a genius since I know a former professor at Yale and a current professor at Rutgers who haven’t scored so well on standardized tests. Funny (in a “pot, kettle” way) about this charge of misunderstanding what people are saying, since I really think you need to provide a cite for when I called myself a “genius”; and you have yet to back up the assertion that my post was a “dramatic misreading”. You could however enlighten me as to what the Yale and Rutgers professors have to do with any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/558 "2013-08-19T05:01:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Funny (in a “pot, kettle” way) about this charge of misunderstanding what people are saying, since I really think you need to provide a cite for when I called myself a “genius”; and you have yet to back up the assertion that my post was a “dramatic misreading”. You could however enlighten me as to what the Yale and Rutgers professors have to do with any of this. Apologies, most people would think that when one claims that one has scored above 99% of all test takers on multiple standardized tests one is at least implicitly claiming to be a genius. Beyond that, I have no desire to continue this conversation and if you really need to be “enlighten[ed]” on my posts then it’s safe to say that those who claim that standardized tests are over-rated know what they are talking about. Anyway, not insult was intended so none should be taken. Beyond that, I’m not sure the meaning of your “pot kettle” reference, since I have never made any claims at all about how I scored on standardized tests. Was there something else you were thinking of? If so, I’d recommend taking it to the pt so we can have a proper conversation. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/559 "2013-08-19T09:07:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, I have no desire to continue this conversation Ahahaha. Yeah. Didn’t think so. Right on: school is out, son. That’ll be all. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/560 "2013-08-19T13:25:29Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That is where you are wrong. You can win as long as you understand the rules of the game. Of course you put your kids in the best schools available. Any responsible parent would. The part you missing is that you need to make vague complaints about the lack of ‘diversity’ wherever you can fit them in whether it is your kid’s school, your neighborhood or, even better, someone else’s neighborhood somewhat nearby. You don’t have to change your own behavior in any substantial way of course unless you think it will add some street cred to your claims. Just casually drop concerns about the plight of any minority group of your choice in random conversations and get some equipment like an expensive single speed bike that you take out a few times a year so that people can see that you are truly making a difference. > > That extends to everything. If you get a check from a legitimate investment that a relative made and you inherited, don’t ever ever say you are thankful for it. Cash it and then bitch about the evils of capitalism and lament the fact that there isn’t more you can do to overturn this unfair regime. That is just Progressivism 101 but it is an easy game to play once you know the cheat codes. Fantastic. Well done, **Shagnasty**. This nails it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=29)