# Why do liberals hate suburbs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965 "2013-07-31T02:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/81 "2013-07-31T22:57:45Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think the stereotype is liberals hate the traditional stereotypical suburb. This is basically new (post-1970 or so) development, probably in planned communities with a limited selection of architectural styles and with a HOA governing the neighborhood. Shopping and other service businesses are not walkable, and in fact the suburb itself while it may have sidewalks will have no convenient walking connections to the shopping areas–which are often large strip mall/shopping center deals. > > But to me that’s not really the suburbia I know. I’ve basically lived in either a major city center or what I’d call a “bedroom community” most of my life. A traditional bedroom community is usually a well established town/small city, they aren’t really suburbs but instead are towns that have existed for generations and have become convenient to the larger city as technology has improved transportation and the city itself has grown. > > Living in these communities, you aren’t living in a cookie cutter neighborhood, but usually have a wide range of options including lots of nice older homes (some even pre-20th century), as well as the ability to buy a range of different types of new construction. Since these communities are traditionally towns/cities in their own right, they usually have a little main street area and if you live near that you can easily walk to do regular activities like go to the supermarket, get your hair cut, doctor’s visits etc. > > Depending on where we’re talking about, these communities will sometimes have public transit links to the major city nearby, but most people drive in from these places to work in the city itself. > > These communities I think strike a nice balance. Housing prices are far more affordable, and you usually get a yard in the deal. You can walk to a few local taverns/pubs/dive bars and they have more of a traditional “neighborhood” feel than the weird canned/house-in-a-box feeling from the planned suburbs. I am a liberal who lives in a bedroom community (hypocrite!) and your post accurately summarizes my views on the matter. I like cities that organically grew out of existing settlements/towns, not ones that have been bare ground for hundreds of years until a developer decides to plant a bunch of McMansions there. Bedroom communities, including the one in which I live (which is about 20,000 people and lies approximately 25 miles from San Francisco), tend to be less car-centric; I can easily walk to supermarkets, bars and restaurants from my front door. But growing up in Orange County CA, such a thing would be inconceivable; the nearest supermarket was several miles from our house. Then there’s the aesthetic reasons you also mentioned in your post. Basically, true suburbs feel far too planned and fake for me. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/82 "2013-07-31T23:02:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you serious? > > Yes, three of the articles were written by Stanley Kurtz, but in them he cites others such as [Investors.com](http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/072213-664703-hud-maps-suburbs-in-new-diversity-project.htm) and [FOX News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/23/team-obama-steps-up-racial-standards-for-neighborhoods/). > > The most prominent liberal in the country says “The days where we’re just building sprawl forever, those days are over.” > > The Sierra Club (I think you’d have a hard time finding many who would deny that, as an organization, they’re on the liberal side of the spectrum) calls suburbs “irresponsible, often poorly-planned development that destroys green space, increases traffic and air pollution, crowds schools and drives up taxes” - and that was just in the first sentence. > > There’s the previously-cited [Krugman article](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/29/opinion/krugman-stranded-by-sprawl.html?_r=0) in which he says, “… the new research on social mobility suggests that sprawl — not just the movement of jobs out of the city, but their movement out of reach of many less-affluent residents of the suburbs, too — is also playing a role. As I said, this observation clearly reinforces the case for policies that help families function without multiple cars.” Obama isn’t a liberal, fox news isn’t a real cite, curbing sprawl isn’t a war on suburbs, the Sierra Club isn’t political, reducing the need for cars is just good sense… man. That might be one of the wrongest posts ever made! Congrats! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/83 "2013-07-31T23:05:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > True. I remember Heinlein remarking on that in an essay in the '50s. Seems an anachronistic concern now, though. No, not really, unless you believe the threat of nuclear war ended with the cold war. At a minimum, North Korea may ultimately be able to lob a missile at us, or a terrorist smuggle in a nuke. It will not destroy the city, no matter what they attempt to claim for propaganda purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/84 "2013-07-31T23:27:57Z")
Next thing you know somebody in the public eye will bring up the astounding fact that homeowners aren’t the only people who matter. I don’t think there’s a war on suburbia, but given population growth it can’t go on much farther. How far are most people willing to commute? At what point does it become a dealbreaker? Somebody mentioned Robert Heinlein. I recall another typical sci-fi meme, which was that there would be _new_ cities with their own suburbs to accommodate the population. In the Star Trek universe, Captain Christopher Pyke was supposed to be from “Mojave”, a city of some millions in what we call the Inland Empire. As catastrophic as that sounds environmentally, perhaps it wouldn’t have been so bad if it meant the retention of open space between L.A. and “Mojave”, along with small towns that retained their history and character. But we didn’t get Mojave. What we got is most of the jobs still in L.A., and people commuting from ever more distant points. I once worked in El Segundo and my officemate came in every day from Corona. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/85 "2013-07-31T23:29:08Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t understand a lot of this post, but one thing that jumps out immediately is that you seem to think that liberals are all white and wealthy. It is possible that working class people of color will also identify as liberals. How do they fit in to this fantasy you have constructed of what liberals are? Not sure what was difficult to understand. Liberals who romanticize city life and move there are most definitely upper middle class. Working class liberals, though they are very few, want to move out of the city because they cannot afford to live in the gentrified districts carved out by upper middle class liberals and send there children to private schools. They know the realities of city life including ruthless crooked police, bad schools, corrupt governments, and food deserts. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/86 "2013-07-31T23:32:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Not sure what was difficult to understand. Liberals who romanticize city life and move there are most definitely upper middle class. Working class liberals, though they are very few, want to move out of the city because they cannot afford to live in the gentrified districts carved out by upper middle class liberals and send there children to private schools. They know the realities of city life including ruthless crooked police, bad schools, corrupt governments, and food deserts. Cool story, bro. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/87 "2013-07-31T23:42:29Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Cool story, bro. Sounds like this might be hitting a little too close to home, huh? Why else would you type something so useless and childish. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/88 "2013-07-31T23:45:48Z")
I can’t say if any particular group likes one or wages war on the other, but I will ask: if liberals supposedly want to live in a diverse area, then so be it…what’s wrong with that? By the same token, if conservatives wish to be among their “own kind” then again: so be it…what’s wrong with that? People can live wherever they can afford to; if you want diversity then move to such an area; if you want your “own kind” then that is fine too. Why be critical of either one? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/89 "2013-07-31T23:46:25Z")
As with many topics, we should probably define our terms and stipulate that we really mean not “liberals” generally, but “well educated white liberals” or–to leave race out of it–what [Paul Fussell calls](http://books.google.com/books?id=aPbF1kuayJYC&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=paul+fussell+class+category+x&source=bl&ots=eaXEU4F0tP&sig=et-tq3aV73ZJlxTYRnFwL8U6gdo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Yp75UfSMPImlqAHr2oHwBA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=paul%20fussell%20class%20category%20x&f=false) “category X”. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think the stereotype is liberals hate the traditional stereotypical suburb. This is basically new (post-1970 or so) development, probably in planned communities with a limited selection of architectural styles and with a HOA governing the neighborhood. Shopping and other service businesses are not walkable, and in fact the suburb itself while it may have sidewalks will have no convenient walking connections to the shopping areas–which are often large strip mall/shopping center deals. Right, again with the need to define terminology. This is what “suburbia” means to me. Your version might technically be a suburb, but it is not “suburbia”, KWIM? **MadMonk’s** snerk about the Olive Garden is on point. Let’s face it: part of the enjoyment of being a liberal is to sneer at people who dine in such places, shop at strip malls, etc. > [@bump](#): > > Or for that matter, one of the most ghetto, poor and violent parts of Houston (Alief/SW) was actually a middle/upper middle class suburb 25-30 years ago. Is it still a suburb, or is it something else? It is likely “the city”, regardless of what it once was. Many metros have inner ring “suburbs” that are just extensions of the city with a grid layout, and no discernible difference from the city itself. That is not suburbia in any meaningful sense. > [@astorian](#): > > Our “lily-white” suburban neighborhood offers my son a hell of a lot more diversity than my old blue-collar urban neighborhood ever offered me. But you don’t live in the suburbs. Not even technically. You live within the city limits! > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Liberals are in a bit of a quandary when it comes to their love of cities. They love culture. Which to them is museums and libraries and ethnic murals. But they have a romanticized view of true city life. The draconian policing, the food deserts, the pollution, the terrible public schools, are things I would think liberals would not enjoy. What it boils down to is liberals like certain parts of the city. Often these are upper middle class liberals who have moved into a newly renovated home in a trendy part of the city so that they can walk to happy hour. They live in homes previously inhabited by working class folks who lived in the city because they had few choices, and they imagine they are somehow connected to those individuals. They see a picture of children playing in an open fire hydrant and feign comradery, but they don’t send their children to school with those children. > > They claim that the city is ethnically diverse, but the neighborhoods are just as homogenous as those in the suburbs, if not even more so. They claim the city has more amenities, but healthy food is relegated to the trendy districts I mentioned. They must be talking about libraries and museums again. I drive through the city and see chicken boxes and liquor stores. I am a liberal, erstwhile (and still wannabe) urbanite, and I will admit this leaves a mark. However, the issue at hand is liberals’ reasons for disliking suburbia, which I think are valid. I want to live in an ideopolis, which means not in suburbia (and also not on a farm or in a ghetto). > [@Chimera](#): > > Obama is NOT a Liberal. If you took a wider, more honest look at how he’s been governing this nation, you would see that he is actually center-right. Pffft. I am Marxian (see the “profit” thread), and I think Obama is clearly center-left in his policies and outright liberal in his disposition. > [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > But we didn’t get Mojave. What we got is most of the jobs still in L.A., and people commuting from ever more distant points. I once worked in El Segundo and my officemate came in every day from Corona. I was stunned to read recently that the average American commute is 25 miles. The average! I would have thought this would be a 90th percentile commute at that distance, and I had already thought we had a sprawl problem. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/90 "2013-07-31T23:46:29Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Not sure what was difficult to understand. Because you are trafficking in pure stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/91 "2013-07-31T23:50:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s almost like you’re living in the same universe as liberals, you’re so close! I’m sorry if I offended you by shining a light on your lifestyle, but you can’t pretend that this isn’t what is going on in many cities. > [@Marley23](#): > > Recognizing that liberals and Democrats aren’t the same exact thing, this is still an absurd claim. I am sure you know how people vote in U.S. cities and we’ve already established that the suburbs are split fairly evenly between Democrats and Republicans. > > Several other posters suggested it since it’s related to the premise of this thread. They’re not living in floating green cities yet. Liberals and Democrats are most definitely not the same thing. Liberals are in a world all their own. Yes Democratic voters may support some liberal policies, but Liberals themselves are almost a different species in American society. They may be spread out at first, but their ultimate goal is to coalesce with over liberals. If they have money this occurs in trendy city neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/92 "2013-07-31T23:54:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Funny how ‘Liberal’ is always used as a Mythical Other by those on the right, to whom All Evils can be acribed. But we (right-wingers) still want to come to your parties. They’re waaay better than ours. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/93 "2013-07-31T23:57:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Sounds like this might be hitting a little too close to home, huh? Why else would you type something so useless and childish. It doesn’t hit close to home. I’m a low earning liberal living in a city. I moved here from the suburbs, which were way cheaper, but I like the amenities like public transportation. You trade in stereotypes and can’t distinguish reality from fantasy. It would be pretty hard for someone like you to insult me. But hey. Cool story. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/94 "2013-07-31T23:58:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Liberals are in a world all their own. Doesn’t seem to be the world you and I are living in. It’d help if you’d at least acknowledge that you’re generalizing instead of acting like you’ve stumbled onto some universal sociological findings. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/95 "2013-08-01T00:44:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you serious? > > Yes, three of the articles were written by Stanley Kurtz, but in them he cites others such as [Investors.com](http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/072213-664703-hud-maps-suburbs-in-new-diversity-project.htm) and [FOX News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/23/team-obama-steps-up-racial-standards-for-neighborhoods/). :dubious: No, at this point you try to climb **out** of that hole, not dig deeper. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/96 "2013-08-01T00:47:40Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > . . . the Sierra Club isn’t political . . . :dubious: Well, I should **hope** it is! N.B.: “Political” != “partisan.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/97 "2013-08-01T00:50:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > They know the realities of city life including ruthless crooked police, bad schools, corrupt governments, and food deserts. We don’t have much of that in Tampa. **Incompetent** government, sometimes, but rarely corrupt. (The county government is another matter, but it’s gotten better since the 1980s.) The police are hardass but not crooked or brutal that I ever heard of, the schools better than they used to be, and there’s no neighborhood where you can’t get a good meal. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/98 "2013-08-01T00:54:05Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Obama isn’t a liberal > [@Chimera](#): > > … Obama is NOT a Liberal. Of course he is. This isn’t really worth a debate. [59% View Obama as More Liberal Than They Are](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/march_2012/59_view_obama_as_more_liberal_than_they_are) [Half Say Obama Too Liberal](http://www.gallup.com/poll/152954/Half-Say-Obama-Liberal-Agree-Issues.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/99 "2013-08-01T00:55:41Z")
If it’s not worth a debate it ought to be easier to find a halfway decent cite. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965/100 "2013-08-01T00:55:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Pffft. I am Marxian (see the “profit” thread) . . . Is that what the kids are calling it now? What happened to “Marxist”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-suburbs/664965.md?page=6)