# Why do liberals hate these countries so much they pretend they don't exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068 "2003-12-15T05:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/161 "2003-12-17T20:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > elucidator you seem so sure of those 90% that I for a moment thought you must have been ‘round counting heads – all forty million of them. However in one of my somewhat (admittedly infrequent) saner moments I realize that’d be impossible and since I know of no country, let alone Spain, that has had a public vote on the subject, I’m forced to the conclusion it’s a bunny number more or less pulled out of a magic hat (or magic arse – this being the pit), or worse some polling institute pulled out of their arse… [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/29/sprj.irq.spain/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/29/sprj.irq.spain/) “With opinion polls showing more than 90 percent of Spaniards are against the war…” Fuck around with the bull, you get the horns. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/162 "2003-12-17T20:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > **elucidator** you seem so sure of those 90% that I for a moment thought you must have been ‘round counting heads – all forty million of them. However in one of my somewhat (admittedly infrequent) saner moments I realize that’d be impossible and since I know of no country, let alone Spain, that has had a public vote on the subject, I’m forced to the conclusion it’s a bunny number more or less pulled out of a magic hat (or magic arse – this being the pit), or worse some polling institute pulled out of their arse. Would the largest demonstration in UK history be relevant? "Hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets of London to voice their opposition to military action against Iraq. Police said it was the UK’s biggest ever demonstration with at least 750,000 taking part, although organisers put the figure closer to two million. There were also anti-war gatherings in Glasgow and Belfast…" [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/163 "2003-12-17T20:54:49Z")
emm… you seem to have missed the part of my post where I expressed my views on polls. Bull?! Umm. veil my favorite meat. Yummy! ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/164 "2003-12-17T20:55:19Z")
For interest’s sake, Barcelona had either the largest or second-largest protest in the world on February 15 (1,300,000 people, according to the Guardia Civil). Madrid had more than 600,000. Also, Oviedo, the capital of Asturias (pop. 180,000) had a turn-out of over 100,000 on that day. [Wikipedia collects cites](http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_protests_against_war_on_Iraq_(pre-war)#February_15_marches) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/165 "2003-12-17T21:03:06Z")
Yes. I find demonstrations more impressive. Still politics are not made by those who can shout the loudest. We are not ruled by a parliament of the street. And while a staggering 750.000 did take part – that leaves you with 59 million that did not. But yes, I find demonstrations immensely more valuable than polls. But not before next national election day, will we see just how unpopular Blair’s support for the war realy was. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/166 "2003-12-17T21:18:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > Yes. I find demonstrations more impressive. Still politics are not made by those who can shout the loudest. We are not ruled by a parliament of the street. And while a staggering 750.000 did take part – that leaves you with 59 million that did not. But yes, I find demonstrations immensely more valuable than polls. But not before next national election day, will we see just how unpopular Blair’s support for the war realy was. > > - Rune I see you can do ‘arithmetic’. :rolleyes: So you think 59 million people back the war in the UK? Is that why Bush didn’t appear in public on his recent state visit? He was worried there would be too many people cheering him? Oh, and in the last UK national election, there was a turnout of 59.4% (source [http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/publications/statistics/turnouts.htm](http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/publications/statistics/turnouts.htm) ). So you would have left 40% of the UK Parliament vacant, because that’s what they were ‘actively’ voting for? What a stupid post. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/167 "2003-12-17T21:28:51Z")
**Glee** : “So you think 59 million people back the war in the UK?” Did I write that **Glee**? Nope I did not. I meant just what I wrote – 750.000 did takt part, 59 million did not take part. You make of that what you want. Democracy is a lousy way to rule a country it’s just that all the other forms of governmet are worse – or something along those lines by Churchill. Anyway, if you think you have an alternative to democracy I’ll be happy to consider it – until that lets not replace it by a pollcracy or some such thing. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/168 "2003-12-17T21:29:09Z")
I just had a thought. let’s see how many of those 59 million turned out on pro-war marches: 'This unanimity was on display on the 7th April at a pro-war rally at Belfast City Hall. Although supposedly “non-political” every shade of unionist was in attendance. **Included in the 300 strong crowd** … The main organiser of the event was the UUP’s Sir John Gorman, a WWII veteran and currently an MLA for North Down. He heaped praise on Bush’s stance on Iraq and enthused at the honour of Northern Ireland hosting a war summit. He also praised the “stoicism and courage” of Tony Blair. Although supporting the war on Iraq the demonstrators were also keen to draw parallels with Ireland. This was clear from the various placards on display, which proclaimed such things as – “Ulster says smash Saddam”, “IRA – Q” and “Basra . . . Baghdad . . . Crossmaglen next?” **Many of these people would know very little of the Middle East** , but they know what imperialism looks like and they like what they are seeing on their TV screens. If they support imperialism in Ireland why wouldn’t they support it in the Middle East? Unlike many in the anti-war movement they do make the connection, **even if it is the result of unthinking prejudice**. … \*\*One of the notable things about the pro-war demonstration was its loyalist paramilitary element. Behind its “respectable” front there was a hardcore of sectarian thugs. This was on display in the nationalist King Street/Castle Street area near the city centre when loyalists on their way to the pro-war rally attacked cars and bystanders, and threw bricks and stones at two local pubs and a taxi office. \*\* (source: [http://members.lycos.co.uk/socialistdemocracyie/2003NewsUnionistsUniteToSupportWar.html](http://members.lycos.co.uk/socialistdemocracyie/2003NewsUnionistsUniteToSupportWar.html) ) Well there we have it. 300 UK people (301 if you count Blair) were prepared to support the war. Admittedly they showed ignorance, prejudice and violence, but I’m sure Bush is grateful for any UK support… ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/169 "2003-12-17T21:42:35Z")
Yes very funny **Glee**. I expect it’s possible to find the same kind of crack heads in the demonstrations against the war – actually in much larger numbers since those demonstrations were so much larger. (The anti-war demonstrations in Denmark were largely organized by some political sect that has these points listed on their official party program: violent revolution, the workers dictatorship and the removal of all democracy.) Anyway, I already said those large demonstrations were impressive – however beyond that I don’t know that much else should be made of them. With a participation that amount to some 1-2% of the whole population – it’s hardly fair to let them rule the country. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/170 "2003-12-17T23:17:12Z")
I’d just like to point out that the words “For interest’s sake” were meant to convey that I didn’t mean my statements as proof – merely as illustration. (Still, it is interesting that Dubya’s misbegotten little adventure managed to provoke the largest mass protest movement in history, quoth Guinness.) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068/171 "2003-12-18T07:53:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > You quite sure you identified the correct poster there, **sailor**? Just asking. Probably not. And frankly, having to reread what I posted and figure out what the hell I was thinking about is not worth the effort so let’s just pretend I didn’t say anything and save us the trouble. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-hate-these-countries-so-much-they-pretend-they-dont-exist/219068.md?page=8)