# Why do liberals oppose war but favour abortion while conservaties are the opposite? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889 "2005-02-02T00:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/21 "2005-02-02T04:29:19Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > This question has always fascinated me. Or more broadly, why when you know one thing about a person (i.e. that he supports abortion - ‘he’ used advisedly), you can put together a pretty accurate identikit picture of him. He’ll be anti capital punishment, read _The Guardian_ (in England - _NYT_ in New York?), be a member of Amnesty International, and be a fan of the United Nations. Usually he’ll be rich, support increased spending on education and healthcare, but be opposed (at least when he’s had a few drinks) to increased taxation. Stereotype much? > [@roger thornhill](#): > > American “liberals” I find more fascinating… > …plagued by a conscience which makes them guilty about things that they shouldn’t be guilty about… Such as? Capital punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/22 "2005-02-02T04:34:12Z")
Where did this notion that conservatives are pro-war and liberals anti-war come from? Isn’t historically true, at least not in the U.S. WWI, WWII, and Vietnam at least were entered into or started by democrats. ---
**Author:** ![rorty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@rorty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rorty)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/23 "2005-02-02T04:41:22Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I was comparing American liberals to British liberals. The contrast is between British liberals (who by implication are pro welfare, pro handouts and anti-gun - what I’m painting as the prototypical “lefty” position) - and American liberals, who, will be pro-abortion, anti DP and pro UN (like their British counterparts), BUT also anti welfare, anti handouts and pro-gun. I think you misunderstand American liberalism in its current day form. I would not characterize “anti-welfare, anti-handouts, and pro-gun” as generally accepted American liberal positions. Quite the opposite in fact. You may be confusing these with commonly held libertarian positions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/24 "2005-02-02T04:58:23Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > On preview, **Marley** , this may help you to see where I’m coming from. Somewhat. I don’t know how different groups of people are thought of where you are, but over here this > [@](#): > > Added to the fact that my own experience (and observation, and reading for that matter) add some support to my belief that when members of a certain group champion the cause of others it is distressingly often at the expense of their own fellow members. Is another one of those old stereotypes about liberals. It’s called “liberal guilt” over here, the thinking being pretty much what you state: ‘liberals are rich, privileged, educated people who went to the best schools and go skiing in Aspen or whatever you said, and they resent themselves for it, and as such seek to disadvantage themselves.’ There may be some people like that, but in general the idea is patronizing and silly. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/25 "2005-02-02T05:21:18Z")
> [@rorty](#): > > I think you misunderstand American liberalism in its current day form. I would not characterize “anti-welfare, anti-handouts, and pro-gun” as generally accepted American liberal positions. Quite the opposite in fact. You may be confusing these with commonly held libertarian positions. See my response to Little Nemo above. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/26 "2005-02-02T05:24:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is another one of those old stereotypes about liberals. It’s called “liberal guilt” over here, the thinking being pretty much what you state: ‘liberals are rich, privileged, educated people who went to the best schools and go skiing in Aspen or whatever you said, and they resent themselves for it, and as such seek to disadvantage themselves.’ There may be some people like that, but in general the idea is patronizing and silly. I think you misunderstand me. I’m not referring to people doing themselves down (quite the opposite, in fact, as one of my points is that “liberal guilt” is all inverted commas and no guilt). I’m referring to people doing down members of their own group. This practice I find to be unnatural and largely indicative of a mis-set moral compass. ---
**Author:** ![rorty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@rorty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rorty)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/27 "2005-02-02T05:38:33Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > See my response to Little Nemo above. I did see it. In fact, I quoted it in my response to you. Your characterization of American liberals is far off base. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/28 "2005-02-02T05:42:37Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I’m referring to people doing down members of their own group. This practice I find to be unnatural and largely indicative of a mis-set moral compass. Alright, great. Now just back up these generalizations and you’re set. And **rorty** is correct that you seem very misinformed about liberals over here. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/29 "2005-02-02T06:21:11Z")
> [@rorty](#): > > I did see it. In fact, I quoted it in my response to you. > > Your characterization of American liberals is far off base. Hey, I’m sorry to refer you to my reply to NEmo’s post. I was getting all my antis and pros confused. But, my point remains (“Which point?” will come shooting back no doubt!) According to what I have read (not least on this board), the understanding I have gained over 40-odd years, and the people I have met, the American liberal is quite a different animal from the British liberal. Of course, I’m dealing in stereotypes (generalisations has a nicer ring to it, but has much the same meaning), but we all do. At least, I’ve yet to met a single person who doesn’t. But how do you guys respond to my contention that there is a tendency, especially among western middle class people, to do down members of their own group, especially, but not only, if the rewards for doing so (in terms for instance of reputation) are there? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/30 "2005-02-02T07:22:50Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > But how do you guys respond to my contention that there is a tendency, especially among western middle class people, to do down members of their own group, especially, but not only, if the rewards for doing so (in terms for instance of reputation) are there? I think people already responded to that… ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/31 "2005-02-02T09:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > But how do you guys respond to my contention that there is a tendency, especially among western middle class people, to do down members of their own group, especially, but not only, if the rewards for doing so (in terms for instance of reputation) are there? Because it’s easier to change one’s own actions, if they are having negative consequences, than those of others. A US liberal is by and large to the political right of a British _conservative_, let alone a British or European _liberal_. (Indeed, the word is arguably used in an utterly counter-intuitive in the US in the first place.) However, that is merely a consequence of the US being so vastly far to the right in _general_ compared to the rest of the industrialised democratic world, which is why abortion and capital punishment are still _debated_ so often there, when those arguments were put to bed five decades ago in the UK. And to answer the OP’s direct question: a separate sperm or egg is human life which can be killed, just like separate daughter nuclei after conception and meiosis. Killing these human cells is not killing a human _being_, which war and capital punishment are. Conception is _just as arbitrary a threshold_ of human being-ness as, say, 18 weeks or birth. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/32 "2005-02-02T09:47:33Z")
Incidentally, what the heck _is_ a “fan of the UN”? Can I be a “fan of the world’s governments”? If I appeal to the House of Commons am I a “fan of all 659 parliamentary constituencies”? ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889/33 "2005-02-02T10:17:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is another one of those old stereotypes about liberals. It’s called “liberal guilt” over here, the thinking being pretty much what you state: ‘liberals are rich, privileged, educated people who went to the best schools and go skiing in Aspen or whatever you said, and they resent themselves for it, and as such seek to disadvantage themselves.’ There may be some people like that, but in general the idea is patronizing and silly. Just as conservatives are not all uptight, old-fashioned people who live on lots of old money passed down from generation to generation and look down on those ‘tree-hugging hippies’ and pass their weekends at the country club. Sure, there are some like that, but not by any means all. This is what we get for stereotyping people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-oppose-war-but-favour-abortion-while-conservaties-are-the-opposite/287889.md?page=1)