# Why Do Liberals Support Affirmation Action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058 "2012-12-05T10:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/41 "2012-12-05T18:41:15Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > There’s one thing I just don’t understand. Why do liberals generally support Affirmative Action? > > Without going into too many details just yet, AA basically changes (or “unlevels”) the playfield, so it favors African Americans. **Yet, I know most liberals believe African Americans are equal to us in intelligence.** So why the need for Affirmative Action? > > 🙂 My bolding Who is “us”? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/42 "2012-12-05T18:46:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The basic premise is that liberals believe black people are equal in abilities to white people (and they also believe this about woman and Hispanics and other people). > > Then liberals look at reality and see that black people (and the other groups I mentioned) are not achieving the same level of success as white people. > > The liberals conclude that this lack of equal success by people with equal abilities must be due to some form of obstacles limiting their success. Affirmative action is an attempt to balance out the disadvantage of these obstacles. > > Arguments made against affirmative action (with rebuttals): > > 1. Black people aren’t equal in abilities to white people. Their lack of success is just a reflection of this. > Rebuttal: Dress it up however you will, this is just racism. > > 2. Black people are achieving the same success as white people. Barack Obama is President, Will Smith is a movie star, Cam Newton is a quarterback. > Rebuttal: A few examples of successful black people does not accurately reflect the general status of black people in America. > > 3. What you say about obstacles facing black people may be true. But that doesn’t mean the government has the right to impose its solutions on people. > Rebuttal: Protecting Americans from harm is what the government is supposed to do. > > 4. Affirmative action is wrong in principle. We should use some other means to balance out the effects of racism. > Rebuttal: Give us some realistic suggestions. A lot of people use this argument as a disguised attempt to make the same argument as #3. They want to throw out affirmative action without offering a replacement solution. > > 5. There’s a problem but we don’t need to force a solution to it. These things work themselves out on their own if you just allow them to without interference. > Rebuttal: We tried that. The 13th Amendment ended slavery in 1865. We sat back and let society take its best shot at solving the problem of racism without interference. Affirmative action wasn’t proposed until 1961. I think a century was a fair chance for society to solve the problem on its own and it didn’t work. 1. This is not a rebuttal it is an attack. Why should it be that America is the only country in the world were people of different races and cultures all have the exact same outcomes? Should the NBA and NFL be seventy percent white or presumed racist? Why do Asians do better in school than white students? Is it because of racism? Why are there several well known Swedish pop groups that sold well in America and no Norweigan pop groups? Is it because Americans hate Norwegians? Why do Jewish Americans have higher incomes than Gentile americans? Why do Cuban Americans have higher incomes than Salvdorean Americans? Why do Indian Americans have higher incomes than Korean Americans who have higher incomes than Irish Americans who have higher incomes than Black Americans? Culture matters, history matters and genetics matter, there is no reason to think that is racism stopped existing tomorrow that every group would be the same as every other group. 2.Succesful people who are black do not tell us much about the status of black people in America but they show that it is very possible for black people to overcome racism and achieve great things in America. 2. It is impossible to discriminate for one American without discriminating against another American. How can it be right for the government to intentionally hurt one person in order to keep another person from suffering the same hurt? Racial discrimination is not just wrong because it produces bad outcomes, it is wrong because it is counter to human dignity no matter who is being discriminated against. 3. The best way to stop discriminating against people on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. Start judging people by the content of their characters. 4. When has government not been involved? They were Jim Crow laws not Jim Crow suggestions. The reason discrimination was codified into laws was so people would not be tempted to stop doing it. Look at the integration of MLB. The reason baseball teams suddenly started hiring black players was not that people suddenly became less racist it was because racism started having a cost. Teams that had black players like the Dodgers won and teams that refused to like the Red Sox lost. The same is true in every market, companies that refuse to hire the best people regardless of race will lose money compared to those that have color blind hiring policies. We went straight from color based discrimination against blacks right to Affirmative Action, race neutral policies have never been tried. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/43 "2012-12-05T18:52:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There were much fewer people repeating the lies about Clinton as there are about Obama. > > Much of what was said about Bush was indeed true: He “won” election in 2004 because Gore didn’t insist on a statewide recount and the Supreme Court stopped the counting that was going on, the was indeed a coke user, and he did start a war under false pretensses. > > Compare this to Obama: he’s a Muslim, he’s a socialist, he’s a Kenyan, he got into college under affirmative action, he pals around with terrorists (as continually stated by Palin), his preacher hates America, he stole money from Medicare, he personally witnessed the Benghazi attack in real time, etc. The lies about Obama are far beyond what any other president has had to endure. None of this is even remotely comparable to the lies that Bush had to endure that he intentionally caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/44 "2012-12-05T18:55:17Z")
**April\_R** , it looks like you quoted just about all of that essay. We ask that people not use very long quotes from sources under copyright. I shortened the excerpt so people can get a gist of your opinion and read the rest at the linked site. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/45 "2012-12-05T18:57:08Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What is said about Obama: He was born in the same country as his father and he got his birth certificate changed, he only pretended to convert to Christianity. > > Any fair minded person could see that what Clinton and Bush were accused of was much worse. I have made no claim that Obama has suffered worse than his two immediate predecessors, (who did a lot more to earn opprobrium than he has), but he has been treated more harshly than Bush I or Reagan or Ford. (OTOH, all the utter foolishness that he is a “socialist” indicate a serious lack of education or understanding among many of his opponents.) And my basic point was addressing your nonsense claim regarding racism. You seem to forget about the cries regarding his “association” with Reverend Wright. The “terrorist fist bump” on the cover of Newsweek? (An ironic commentary on his opponents that was recognized as a valid commentary on their opposition.) [Racist Ole Miss students riot over Obama win](http://americablog.com/2012/11/racist-students-riot-in-mississippi-over-obama-win.html) Do a Google search on “Obama watermelon” or “Obama noose.” Claims that just because he got elected, racism is a non-issue are just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/46 "2012-12-05T19:44:42Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You are _causing_ harm. The preferential treatment you give to selected groups is paid for by the people who are excluded in favour of less qualified applicants. Any system of inequality favors somebody - that’s pretty much in the definition. So introducing equality into an unequal system will obviously remove that favoritism. There’s no problem with that if the favoritism was unfair or unearned. I wouldn’t support a system that gives blacks an advantage over whites. But I would support a system that removes an advantage whites have over blacks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/47 "2012-12-05T19:51:50Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is not a rebuttal it is an attack. Yes, it is. Fuck racism. I’ve never said we need to tolerate or condone or understand racism. Racism should be treated like crime or disease. Our goal should be to eliminate it entirely. > [@puddleglum](#): > > The best way to stop discriminating against people on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. Start judging people by the content of their characters. I agree. And when society reaches the point where people actually do this, we can stop worrying about racism because it’ll be dead. But we’re not there yet. Racism is on the run but it still exists. So we need to keep hitting it until we kill it. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/48 "2012-12-05T20:09:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **April\_R** , it looks like you quoted just about all of that essay. We ask that people not use very long quotes from sources under copyright. I shortened the excerpt so people can get a gist of your opinion and read the rest at the linked site. Thanks Marley. I debated quoting that much, but I figured with the tone of the OP’s initial post they wouldn’t bother to read the link, so I decided to post the whole thing. Hopefully they will read the links and thoughtfully consider it, but I don’t have my hopes up. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/49 "2012-12-05T21:27:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > None of this is even remotely comparable to the lies that Bush had to endure that he intentionally caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people. It’s not a lie, he did. What, do you think war is an involuntary reflex? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/50 "2012-12-05T21:52:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > 1. What you say about obstacles facing black people may be true. But that doesn’t mean the government has the right to impose its solutions on people. > Rebuttal: Protecting Americans from harm is what the government is supposed to do. > 2. There’s a problem but we don’t need to force a solution to it. These things work themselves out on their own if you just allow them to without interference. > Rebuttal: We tried that. The 13th Amendment ended slavery in 1865. We sat back and let society take its best shot at solving the problem of racism without interference. Affirmative action wasn’t proposed until 1961. I think a century was a fair chance for society to solve the problem on its own and it didn’t work. This is where the AA falls apart. These rebuttals are simply not true. The government is supposed to do exactly what the Constitution allows it to do. AA protects certain groups from racial discrimination while promoting the racial discrimination of another group. For number 5. The voting rights of African Americans were being denied. This is something the fed government could have prevented constitutionally. There was no chance for the democratic process to work to end racial discrimination without AA. I hope you weren’t being deliberately dishonest with your mischaracterization because its something has been pointed out several times in these conversations. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/51 "2012-12-05T22:23:43Z")
It could be that supporters of AA are completely ignorant of the causes of racism in the United States. They likely have little experience with real life racists and almost certainly do not listen for the reasons these folks give for being racist. This is their fatal mistake. They seek to dismantle something that they do not understand. I encourage them to seek out racists. Argue with them. Challenge their assumptions. You will learn that, almost without exception, they justify their racism based on two things that government has created. That is AA and the welfare state. You cannot combat racist ideology with AA. You can only throw gasoline on the fire. Liberals are once again shamelessly ignorant of the secondary outcomes of their favored government action. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/52 "2012-12-05T22:27:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It could be that supporters of AA are completely ignorant of the causes of racism in the United States. They likely have little experience with real life racists and almost certainly do not listen for the reasons these folks give for being racist. This is their fatal mistake. They seek to dismantle something that they do not understand. Out of curiosity, could you provide us with your estimates of the percentage of African Americans that: (a) support Affirmative Action, and (b) have no experience with racists? (I’m looking for two numbers, I don’t assume that one number would answer both questions.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/53 "2012-12-05T22:28:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It could be that supporters of AA are completely ignorant of the causes of racism in the United States. They likely have little experience with real life racists and almost certainly do not listen for the reasons these folks give for being racist. This is their fatal mistake. They seek to dismantle something that they do not understand. I encourage them to seek out racists. Argue with them. Challenge their assumptions. You will learn that, almost without exception, they justify their racism based on two things that government has created. That is AA and the welfare state. > > You cannot combat racist ideology with AA. > > You can only throw gasoline on the fire. Liberals are once again shamelessly ignorant of the secondary outcomes of their favored government action. Affirmative Action and welfare are the causes of racism. Some days I don’t know whether laugh, cry or scream. Today looks to be a triple-header. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/54 "2012-12-05T22:30:03Z")
That is complete bullshit, **Will**. Some may justify their racism that way, but it isn’t the cause. And in my experience I rarely even hear those as justifications. More generally it’s something to do with genetics, rap music, drug use, or some general “thuggishness”. Your basic racism. Welfare didn’t exist until the 1930’s. AA much later. Are you claiming that there wasn’t racism before that? Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/55 "2012-12-05T22:30:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It could be that supporters of AA are completely ignorant of the causes of racism in the United States. They likely have little experience with real life racists and almost certainly do not listen for the reasons these folks give for being racist. This is their fatal mistake. They seek to dismantle something that they do not understand. I encourage them to seek out racists. Argue with them. Challenge their assumptions. You will learn that, almost without exception, they justify their racism based on two things that government has created. That is AA and the welfare state. :rolleyes: Don’t be ridiculous. Racism existed here long before either of those. And you counter racists with coercion & force, not reason; they don’t respond to reason. We have racists right here on the SDMB; they never respond to reason, they just keep on pushing their racism until if and when they cross a line and get banned. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You cannot combat racist ideology with AA. No; mostly you defeat racist ideology by educating the younger generation and waiting for the racists to die of old age. AA can counter many of the effects of racism however. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/56 "2012-12-05T22:35:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; mostly you defeat racist ideology by educating the younger generation and waiting for the racists to die of old age. AA can counter many of the effects of racism however. This is so true. There aren’t “two sides” to racism. You don’t need to talk to racists and figure out some way to placate them. Fuck racists. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/57 "2012-12-05T22:43:43Z")
If you don’t know that AA and the welfare state cause racism in 21st century America, I encourage you to get out and breathe in some fresh air. Nowhere did I say that AA caused racism 200 years ago. Settle down. Another mistake liberals often make is to assume their opponents are irrational. Many are, but an overwhelming majority are not. Therefore it follows that when you argue with a racist you will encounter a rational basis for their racism. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/58 "2012-12-05T22:47:36Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This is so true. > > There aren’t “two sides” to racism. You don’t need to talk to racists and figure out some way to placate them. Fuck racists. You’re optimism is misplaced. There are just as many racists today as there were 100 years ago. “Education” is what I’m talking about. You educate wrongheaded thinkers by challenging their assumptions. Of course if you’re a liberal who spends a lot of time on a liberal MB this idea may not be hitting home. That’s a mighty bold statement by the way. “Fuck racists” takes such courage to say, especially on a MB. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/59 "2012-12-05T22:48:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you don’t know that AA and the welfare state cause racism in 21st century America, I encourage you to get out and breathe in some fresh air. Can you answer my questions please? I’m truly curious as to your thoughts since I think you and I would agree that we see society very differently. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/60 "2012-12-05T22:49:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you don’t know that AA and the welfare state cause racism in 21st century America, I encourage you to get out and breathe in some fresh air. Nowhere did I say that AA caused racism 200 years ago. Settle down. Another mistake liberals often make is to assume their opponents are irrational. Many are, but an overwhelming majority are not. Therefore it follows that when you argue with a racist you will encounter a rational basis for their racism. Considering what you’ve said in this thread, I think taking _your_ guidance as to which racists are rational and which are irrational would be rather, well…irrational. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058.md?page=4)