# Why Do Liberals Support Affirmation Action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058 "2012-12-05T10:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/61 "2012-12-05T22:57:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Out of curiosity, could you provide us with your estimates of the percentage of African Americans that: (a) support Affirmative Action, and (b) have no experience with racists? (I’m looking for two numbers, I don’t assume that one number would answer both questions.) A) 90%? A group will usually support policies in its interest. This is a democracy right? B) 1% Blacks who have reasoned debates with racists: 0%. It would be difficult for black Americans to take my advice. Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/62 "2012-12-05T22:58:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You cannot combat racist ideology with AA. That’s partly because affirmative action itself is racist, and based on racist ideas. Another problem is that AA can reinforce racist ideas rather than combat them. I mentioned it in another thread. If you admit blacks to universities based on a lower standard than for whites or Asians, then the black students will tend to drop out more and get worse grades. It is difficult to avoid seeing that the bottom quarter of your classmates are disproportionately black, and if everyone denies that they got any special breaks, and were admitted under the same standard of fairness of everybody else, it is not going to reinforce any notion that we are all the same and race is meaningless and all that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/63 "2012-12-05T22:59:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Considering what you’ve said in this thread, I think taking _your_ guidance as to which racists are rational and which are irrational would be rather, well…irrational. You seem to be at pains to type replies without saying anything of substance. Is this your favored MO because I would just rather skip your posts after seeing your name. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/64 "2012-12-05T23:03:32Z")
nevermind, misread something. Thanks for the answers. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/65 "2012-12-05T23:08:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you don’t know that AA and the welfare state cause racism in 21st century America, I encourage you to get out and breathe in some fresh air. Nowhere did I say that AA caused racism 200 years ago. Settle down. Another mistake liberals often make is to assume their opponents are irrational. Many are, but an overwhelming majority are not. Therefore it follows that when you argue with a racist you will encounter a rational basis for their racism. If true, why isn’t AA synonymous with gender divisions but racial ones? Where’s the wave of misogyny that’s created by AA? Why does every single discussion on the merits of AA boil down to people’s unease toward racial preferences? If AA is the root of social tensions it tends to steer this tension solely towards African-Americans. It’s simple, AA does not create modern-day racists; just like it doesn’t create modern-day misogynists. Racists and misogynists already exist in society and they hitch their wagon to their pet causes. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/66 "2012-12-05T23:08:48Z")
**Will** , do you really not know the difference between a justification and a rationalization? Racists may rationalize their backwards thinking by saying it’s because of AA or Welfare (although, as I said, IME they generally blame drugs, rap, or genetics). But these are just rationalizations. If all of these things went away they would still be racists, they would just blame other things. How do I know this? Because there were racists before all of these things existed (or were known about in the case of genetics). Because racism is not a position you reason yourself in to (nor can you reason someone out of it, by and large). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/67 "2012-12-05T23:15:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Another mistake liberals often make is to assume their opponents are irrational. Many are, but an overwhelming majority are not. Therefore it follows that when you argue with a racist you will encounter a rational basis for their racism. Garbage. Racists are irrational, as well as malignant scum. You deal with them by overpowering them, not by reason; the Civil War wasn’t won by reason. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There are just as many racists today as there were 100 years ago. I see no reason to buy that for a moment. Nor, just as importantly, is most of the racism that still exists anywhere near as strong as it once was. If you were right, where’s the pro-slavery movement? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/68 "2012-12-05T23:27:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This is where the AA falls apart. These rebuttals are simply not true. The government is supposed to do exactly what the Constitution allows it to do. AA protects certain groups from racial discrimination while promoting the racial discrimination of another group. Show me in the Constitution where it mentions you by name. Because I’m unaware of the part where it says Will Farnaby decides what’s constitutional. The way I’ve heard it the Supreme Court makes those decisions and they apparently don’t agree with your decision. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There was no chance for the democratic process to work to end racial discrimination without AA. As I said, we tried it that way for a hundred years or so and it didn’t work. Care to offer a speculation on how long the democratic process would have taken to end racism in America? Another hundred years? Two hundred? Five hundred? Maybe you’d have been willing to wait that long. But then again, it wasn’t your problem, was it? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It could be that supporters of AA are completely ignorant of the causes of racism in the United States. They likely have little experience with real life racists and almost certainly do not listen for the reasons these folks give for being racist. This is their fatal mistake. They seek to dismantle something that they do not understand. I encourage them to seek out racists. Argue with them. Challenge their assumptions. You will learn that, almost without exception, they justify their racism based on two things that government has created. That is AA and the welfare state. What’s the point in talking to somebody who thinks there was no racism in this country until 1961? That person is either an idiot or a liar. Nothing personal, of course. Because as you pointed out, this is the kind of stupid lies that racists use to justify their racism. And you’re not a racist, right? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/69 "2012-12-05T23:44:07Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > There’s one thing I just don’t understand. Why do liberals generally support Affirmative Action? > > Without going into too many details just yet, AA basically changes (or “unlevels”) the playfield, so it favors African Americans. Yet, I know most liberals believe African Americans are equal to us in intelligence. So why the need for Affirmative Action? > > 🙂 The majority of people eligible for Aff Am aren’t black. Full stop. Hispanics, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders. Women, in STEM fields. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/70 "2012-12-05T23:55:28Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > If true, why isn’t AA synonymous with gender divisions but racial ones? Where’s the wave of misogyny that’s created by AA? Why does every single discussion on the merits of AA boil down to people’s unease toward racial preferences? If AA is the root of social tensions it tends to steer this tension solely towards African-Americans. > > It’s simple, AA does not create modern-day racists; just like it doesn’t create modern-day misogynists. Racists and misogynists already exist in society and they hitch their wagon to their pet causes. If you would like to debate the causes of modern day misogyny you should ask someone else about that. I said AA caused racism not misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/71 "2012-12-06T00:00:45Z")
Yes, but has been noted a few times in this thread, other groups, most notably women are more often the beneficiaries of AA than black people. Why are you focusing solely on black people and not the other groups? It seemed to me, the OP is poisoned fruit and all discussions stemming from his flawed premise are doomed to tread on issues discussed in previous threads. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/72 "2012-12-06T00:03:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you would like to debate the causes of modern day misogyny you should ask someone else about that. I said AA caused racism not misogyny. Would you be o.k. with Affirmative Action if it didn’t cover African Americans? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/73 "2012-12-06T00:05:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. Racists are irrational, as well as malignant scum. You deal with them by overpowering them, not by reason; the Civil War wasn’t won by reason. You seem to think the Civil War was fought because of racial inequality in the Southern states. Maybe you’re not aware of the Illinois [Black](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)#section_1) Codes and the butcher Abraham Lincoln’s support of them. Sorry to discredit your comic book version of Civil War history. No ideology has been conquered by force. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/74 "2012-12-06T00:07:35Z")
Further, If you’re against AA, then I am assuming you’re against it for all groups. How about making your arguments using those other groups instead of the black people or is your issue solely race based? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/75 "2012-12-06T00:10:01Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > There’s one thing I just don’t understand. Why do liberals generally support Affirmative Action? > > Without going into too many details just yet, AA basically changes (or “unlevels”) the playfield, so it favors African Americans. Yet, I know most liberals believe African Americans are equal to us in intelligence. So why the need for Affirmative Action? > > 🙂 Why do conservatives generally hate black people? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/76 "2012-12-06T00:23:18Z")
There are a lot more factors than just intelligence that contribute to effective education. I think AA was a great idea. That said, while schools should keep an eye on demographics, I think they should transition away from strictly race and towards something more like class / region or other factors that are more to the point. And they need to not just admit at risk students but also give them more resources like counseling and health care. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/77 "2012-12-06T00:38:41Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Further, If you’re against AA, then I am assuming you’re against it for all groups. How about making your arguments using those other groups instead of the black people or is your issue solely race based? I’m against AA because I’m against any kind of discrimination. It just so happens that AA results in shitty outcomes as well as bein morally bankrupt so ill use whatever argument I feel like using. Who the hell are you? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/78 "2012-12-06T00:45:46Z")
To what extent are AA programs in place other than school admissions and other educational programs? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/79 "2012-12-06T00:47:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > the Civil War wasn’t won by reason. You saw **Lincoln** too, huh? How bout that Tommy Lee Jones,. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058/80 "2012-12-06T00:50:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m against AA because I’m against any kind of discrimination. It just so happens that AA results in shitty outcomes as well as bein morally bankrupt so ill use whatever argument I feel like using. Who the hell are you? Do you have a citation that it results in “shitty” outcomes? Have you considered that perhaps the black guy got the job because you can’t spell? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-liberals-support-affirmation-action/643058.md?page=5)