# Why do libertarians always want to abolish the FEDERAL RESERVE **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124 "2018-12-14T16:06:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/301 "2018-12-28T21:41:58Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > If it was my world, all “top people” (meaning the people in charge) at big banks would be required to serve 4 years in the Marine Corps. Oh that is the deep thinking, they could do the mandatory service in the GRU or something. > [@](#): > > By the way, how many big bankers who were involved in 2008 went to jail? Besides Bernie Madoff? He was not a banker at all but a securities brokerage, but it seems it is a sterile effort to bother to try to correct your misunderstandings, as this is not really a debate, but more a ranting probably better for the Pit in the end. But since he ran a huge open fraud, with the fraudulent and the faked documents, rather than just being incompetent or making mistakes… not surprising he was convicted. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Honestly, the way Libertarianism is being described sounds to me much like how Communism is described; something that sounds good in an ideal state but impractical in reality. It seems to me the Ayn Rand philosophy that seems to be the heart of the american libertarianism (at least most of those that post on this board) is really an inversion of Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Kamaski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9d8465/32.png) [@Kamaski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamaski)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/302 "2018-12-28T21:59:33Z")
From Wikipedia (((((((( “In the United States the term “deep state” is used in political messaging to describe a controversial belief.[1][2] As described in 2013 by Mike Lofgren,[3] a former Republican U.S. congressional aide, the deep state is “a hybrid association of elements of government and parts of top-level finance and industry that is effectively able to govern the United States without reference to the consent of the governed as expressed through the formal political process.” [4][5] The term is often used in a critical sense vis-à-vis the general electorate to refer to the lack of influence popular democracy has on these institutions and the decisions they make as a shadow government.[6][7] An April 2017 poll documented that 48% of Americans thought there was a “deep state”.[8] )))))))) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/303 "2018-12-28T22:03:42Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > If it was my world, all “top people” (meaning the people in charge) at big banks would be required to serve 4 years in the Marine Corps. > > I guarantee they more honest and humble after having to deal with Mr. Drill Instructor screaming at the top of his lungs in their face. I think you’ll find that libertarians oppose the draft (except in the case of the first group on this continent to use it), so forcing service on bankers will not go over well with libertarians. By the way, what was your service in the military like? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/304 "2018-12-28T22:11:17Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > From Wikipedia > ) Promoting these are the real purpose of this thread I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/305 "2018-12-28T22:15:39Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > From Wikipedia > > (((((((( “In the United States the term “deep state” is used in political messaging to describe a controversial belief. Why the heck are you quoting Wikipedia on “deep state”? How is that relevant to _anything_? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/306 "2018-12-28T22:23:39Z")
See his other threads active in this forum right now. Draw some conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Kamaski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9d8465/32.png) [@Kamaski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamaski)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/307 "2018-12-28T22:46:34Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I think you’ll find that libertarians oppose the draft (except in the case of the first group on this continent to use it), so forcing service on bankers will not go over well with libertarians. By the way, what was your service in the military like? No, i was not in the US military. But I watched both twin towers fall down from across the river in Brooklyn, and since that day I have always had a large interest in politics. Many people from my area went into the city in the months after that day to pick the bodies out of the rubble, and many of them of them now have breathing problems from all the concrete dust they inhaled. they are not wealthy people, in fact they are poor people. i just hate to see poor people being taken advantage of by the rich/super powerful. The rich can run rings around the poor, because many people in my area are uneducated/don’t have a good education. If you asked them about banking/federal reserve they wouldn’t have the slightest clue. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/308 "2018-12-28T22:54:19Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > No, i was not in the US military. So your confident assertions about the effect of boot camp are not based on personal knowledge. You also confidently asserted that credit default swaps were a bad thing, but can’t explain what they are. It seems like your heart is in the right place, but you keep talking about things without making the least effort to find the facts first. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/309 "2018-12-28T22:57:03Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > Well the Chinese are building buildings without any tenants to occupy them right? Kinda like what happened with the Empire State Building. The company that built the ESB was heavily in debt when the building opened in 1931, as it had to borrow trenendous amounts from the banks to get the need funds for all the building materials. > > However the depositors, the people who have their money to the bank to support the loans needed, lost confidence while the building was still under construction, and all of them tried to pull their money out at once. However the bank didn’t have their money, because they loaned it all to the builders so that they could buy the necessary building materials. Yes, it was a problem that the Depression occurred while the ESB was being built. That is true for lots of unlucky builders. But you might have noticed that there is no Depression in China, so the relevance of your story tp my point is unclear. And do you have a cite for excessive lending being a cause of the Depression. Lending for buying stock on margin, perhaps. I’ve never hear that one. > [@](#): > > When the building opened in 1931 they couldn’t get any tenants because nobody could afford to rent out a floor of the Empire State Building. Since all the people/companies who could afford it had lost all their money in the crash of ‘29. Not true. From the [Wuiki enbry on the ESB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State_Building) > [@](#): > > The Empire State Building’s opening coincided with the Great Depression in the United States, and as a result much of its office space was vacant from its opening.[128] In the first year, only 23% of the available space was rented,[136][137] as compared to the early 1920s, where the average building would have occupancy of 52% upon opening and 90% rented within five years.[138] The lack of renters led New Yorkers to deride the building as the “Empty State Building”.[136][128][139] 23% is not great, but better than 0. > [@](#): > > And the reason the crash happened in the first place was people lending their money to support a giant building boom which couldn’t be afforded to be paid back! There was no depression when the bankers lent their money. Investments like this were not the cause. > [@](#): > > And the FED basically adds fuel the the fire by not allowing them to fail. Lots of banks fail, actually (or did during the recession) but they got sold to other banks. Their depositors were protected by FDIC (not the Fed) which discourages bank runs since depositors are sure to get their money and thus don’t have to panic. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/310 "2018-12-28T23:05:04Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > Septimus, I have read your post but don’t understand it fully. I will try to reply when I re-read it and understand it better. But good point. > > Anyway, let’s say Elon Musk takes $5,000 worth of raw materials and turns it into a state-of-the-art Tesla electric car worth $80,000. I believe it thats great for the economy. He has made a great profit while building cars which are a benefit to all humanity, they are efficient and don’t burden the economy nearly as much as gasoline-powered cars. > > Agree? I drove by the Tesla plant on my way to work, so that makes me an expert using your logic. Tesla had to buy it from its previous occupants, Nummi. (Maybe going through a few stages.) Where did Musk get the money to do this? And buy the production machinery? Banks. Venture capitalists. None of whom are productive using your definition - but all of whom enable production. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/311 "2018-12-28T23:08:20Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > I spend a lot of time in lower manhattan btw, right by Wall Street and I often see bankers coming out of work, or ride the subway with some of them. A couple times I have had a conversation with them. When I worked in Silicon Valley, there were lovely people who were close to us, in the sense that they emptied our trash and mopped our floors. None of them saw fit to participate in a thread on microprocessor design. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/312 "2018-12-28T23:29:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Libertarianism=nonviolence > > Greed is one of the many non-violent things libertarians would permit in a free society. The Koch Brothers — leading “intellectual” lights of Libertarianism — are motivated strictly by greed. They elevate property rights over human rights. Oh sure, they support the “liberties” of guns, sodomy and marijuana as well — that’s just to dupe more voters: Kochs and the other libertarian greed-mongers don’t care about those issues. The Kochs want the “liberty” to pollute streams and poison humans near their factories. I guess that’s “non-violent” since those humans are at liberty to pack up their house and move to a state or country which has respect for human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Kamaski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9d8465/32.png) [@Kamaski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamaski)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/313 "2018-12-28T23:29:33Z")
1. Why did Lehman brothers, an investment bank, need to have $639 billion dollar of assets before filing for bankruptcy? On the day Lehman Brothers collapsed, why were employees seen running out the headquarters destroying documents, emptying their filing cabinets? 2. excactly how many people were put in jail because of the collapse of Lehman brothers, which was one of the worst events in US history but also they weren’t even the only investment bank practiceing corruption and greed? 3. How does a bank, which produces nothing, get nearly $700 billion dollars in assets. Could it have been highly leveraged loans, high rate of interest, basically legalized stealing? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/314 "2018-12-28T23:30:06Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > Ok, so Wall Street/lower Manhattan is dedicated to INVESTMENT BANKING, I didn’t know that. What is the deference between investment and commercial bank? And what kind of banking caused the ‘08 crash? A combination of investment and commercial banking. The commercial side wanted to capitalize on ARM loans, and the investment side wanted to capitalize on rising real estate values. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/315 "2018-12-29T00:00:22Z")
In the modern western nations, going bankrupt is not a crime against the state. Repeating again and again the various ad hoc conspiracy theory assertions is not advancing any understanding. Or even debate as we bounce from one subject to another as if nothing was previously posted. The Lehman brothers was not a commercial lending hbank and its bankruptcy was the secondary securities trading in the capital market. but I guess it is pointless to try to have any factual reasoning here. ---
**Author:** ![Kamaski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9d8465/32.png) [@Kamaski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamaski)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/316 "2018-12-29T00:44:16Z")
And the reason the I didnt join the army was because they wouldn’t take me, since I didn’t have a green card. me and my brother came to ameirca at the same time, he was in army and also a fireman. Trust me I would have joined the army if they would take me, when I first came to america my first job was doing manual labor and payed $140 a day. I hated that job. even now I still do similar jobs but get payed a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/317 "2018-12-29T01:27:57Z")
Am I seeing a debate, here? I don’t think so. Turn it into one or I’ll close this and we can all move on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/318 "2018-12-29T02:30:14Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > If it was my world, all “top people” (meaning the people in charge) at big banks would be required to serve 4 years in the Marine Corps. > > I guarantee they more honest and humble after having to deal with Mr. Drill Instructor screaming at the top of his lungs in their face. ‘Former marine jailed’ gets [about 8,650,000](https://www.google.com/search?q=former+marine+jailed) results on Google. Whereas ‘sanitation worker jailed’ nets only [about 283,000](https://www.google.com/search?num=50&ei=CtsmXMLIK8q-ggfghoeABQ&q=sanitation+worker+jailed) results. Admittedly this is not scientific. And there are probably some number of former marines in sanitation which skews things. Still, I have already provided far more vigor to show that garbage men would be more honest and humble than marines would be especially in response to someone exhibiting marked troll-like tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![Kamaski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9d8465/32.png) [@Kamaski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamaski)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/319 "2018-12-29T02:35:50Z")
It says right on Wikipedia that Richard S. Fuld Jr. (the CEO of Lehman brothers) and Jamie Diamond (the CEO of JPMorganChase, I think the largest bank in America by far) have both served on on the the board of directors of the federal reserve bank of New York. Both of these individuals command salaries in the ten of millions of dollar range. With hundreds of millions of dollars in assets. It couldn’t be possible that in their capacity as members of the board of directors of the federal reserve bank of New York, they favor the interests of the big banks, could it? Reality is stranger than fiction. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/320 "2018-12-29T02:37:15Z")
They certainly need to understand how banking works. Unlike certain posters on this message board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124.md?page=17)