# Why do libertarians always want to abolish the FEDERAL RESERVE **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124 "2018-12-14T16:06:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/61 "2018-12-14T22:51:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think the general libertarian view on the Federal Reserve is shaped by two streams of thought. > > First, some libertarians have an earnestly held view that the Fed is bad policy. > > Second, libertarians as a group include an awful lot of cranks who embrace all sorts of conspiracies and other bullshit about many things, from the moon landing didn’t happen, to vaccines cause autism, to racist international banking conspiracies. Nailed it in two. Not bad. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/62 "2018-12-14T23:11:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The Fed doesn’t have to be abolished outright. Ron Paul, the most libertarian political figure in modern U.S. history, proposed that we end the Fed by repealing legal tender laws, allowing hard money to compete with government paper. Well, he did title his autobiograph _[END THE FED](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=29&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi-pbTktaDfAhWmCjQIHYPuCS8Qzo4CKAEwHHoECAAQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%2Fabout%2FEnd_the_Fed.html%3Fid%3Ds3vkxGyQ-BQC%26printsec%3Dfrontcover%26source%3Dkp_read_button&usg=AOvVaw2qaNOZMtzPIBiv6a0s6wzv)_. Be that as it may, it is true that a gold standard would tie in well with libertarian philosophy, mainly because it could facilitate privatization of the currency and coinage. I don’t think most people today are aware of how things worked under the gold standard. It wasn’t like the government mints stamped out gold coins whenever they felt like drawing down their gold stockpiles, nor did they ask the Treasury to send them more gold so they could do so. Instead, it worked almost like a crowdsourcing scheme. Anyone who held gold could bring it to into their nearest mint, which would then stamp it out into coins which were given back to the person, minus a small seigniorage to finance mint operations. This is why mints were established in or near gold mining centers like Denver and San Francisco. From that business model it’s only a short step to privatizing the mints themselves and presumably reducing the role of government to one of regulating production standards and business transparency. I’m not saying I think a metal standard could work, but I think that’s the general idea of those who advocate it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/63 "2018-12-14T23:20:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The Fed doesn’t have to be abolished outright. Ron Paul, the most libertarian political figure in modern U.S. history, proposed that we end the Fed by repealing legal tender laws, allowing hard money to compete with government paper. Legal tender laws hardly stop that. And you can pay in Bitcoin or even gold in many places. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/64 "2018-12-14T23:29:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s because people want money to be boring. They want it to be stable. They want to know that what the money have will basically be worth tomorrow the same’s it’s worth today, and they want to know that things cost exactly what they say the cost. Currency is nothing more than a tool, a means of converting labor to goods and services. I don’t think how decentralizing and deregulating it will make things better. And gold is anything but stable. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/65 "2018-12-14T23:42:57Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > From that business model it’s only a short step to privatizing the mints themselves and presumably reducing the role of government to one of regulating production standards and business transparency. Regulate business? The government? What _have_ you been reading? The invisible hand will take care of that. The _only_ role of the government is to register deed and title, and to insure that no one else is allowed to touch your stuff without your permission (through a duly chartered, privately operated police force). ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/66 "2018-12-14T23:56:01Z")
> [@Kamaski](#): > > What is the federal reserve? I’m not the smartest person in the world, nor am an economics expert. Why is it so important? I did learn some stuff about monetary policy in high school, but didn’t understand a lot of it. I actually like libertarians, usually they are very chill people, but don’t understand a lot of their philosophy. A lot of people of all political stripes (including myself), not just libertarians, believe the fed is unconstitutional. And even if it wasn’t it’s not the way monetary systems were supposed to be established in this country. I’m not that concerned with what other countries do before my concern of my own. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM) explains some things and is entertaining to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/67 "2018-12-15T00:14:34Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And even if it wasn’t it’s not the way monetary systems were supposed to be established in this country. But that’s like saying that the U.S. Navy isn’t like it was supposed to be when the country was established, because the ships aren’t made of wood. Economics is a science like any other. Advancements are made. > [@pkbites](#): > > I’m not that concerned with what other countries do before my concern of my own. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM) explains some things and is entertaining to boot. But that’s how countries get to be great - by looking at what other countries do, and stealing what works. You thing your Founding Fathers didn’t know that? They were, after all, masterful thieves ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/68 "2018-12-15T00:59:21Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > A lot of people of all political stripes (including myself), not just libertarians, believe the fed is unconstitutional. And even if it wasn’t it’s not the way monetary systems were supposed to be established in this country. I’m not that concerned with what other countries do before my concern of my own. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM) explains some things and is entertaining to boot. A lot of people believe Ohio wasn’t properly admitted to the union and so isn’t a state. The rest of the people point out that it could have been done by drunken monkeys but after 200 years you need to just accept it. And while the founders were multi-talented polymaths their absolute worst subject was economics. That it took until 1913 for a permanent central bank to be established is sheer madness. The only group worse than government when it comes to national finances is the private market. BTW, I’m not watching a half hour of animation on YouTube. If it’s worth saying, say it here. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/69 "2018-12-15T01:08:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s always wise at this point to take a step back and remember that no country in the world has gone back to hard money since abolishing it. None. Not the strongest dictatorship under a crazy leader who could do whatever he wanted and damn the consequences, not a country enduring dire inflation or depression, not a modern country employing the most advanced economic thinking, not even supposed libertarian paradises like Singapore. Of course not. The United States has sanctioned, bombed or invaded every country that has tried, specifically because hard money is a threat to the petrodollar and the US is **very** aggressive about preserving the petrodollar. Almost every country we have taken direct hostile action against has done something immediately proceeding that action that serves as a severe threat to the petrodollar. Why do you think we hate Iran, support bombing Yemen, and support the Crown Prince who quite clearly murdered Kashoggi? (If you’re unaware, the Petrodollar system is dependent on the cooperation of Saudi Arabia and it’s sphere of influence). Now, I’m not a libertarian so I can’t speak for them, and I’ll admit a lot of idiots conflate nepotism, oligarchy, and various other economic issues with racial issues, but the fed itself is **designed to make poor people poorer**. That 2% mandate means, by definition, means rich people (specifically, those who own stocks in banks) are being made rich by _direct_ transfer of purchasing power from the poor to the stockholders. If you’re okay with that, fine, but you don’t have to be conspiracy theorist to say “maybe the rich don’t need free purchasing power at the expense of the poor.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/70 "2018-12-15T01:24:05Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > … > > The United States has sanctioned, bombed or invaded every country that has tried, specifically because hard money is a threat to the petrodollar and the US is **very** aggressive about preserving the petrodollar. …" Cite that any of these nations were going to go back on the Gold system? ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/71 "2018-12-15T01:35:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite that any of these nations were going to go back on the Gold system? Libya (just google “Gaddafi gold oil” - I’m not playing a game of “do you like this source or that source” when there are literally thousands to choose from). Iraq was also targeted because Sadam was pushing for a Euro/oil exchange. Again, I specifically said “threats to the petrodollar.” Also note that a fiat standard is _extremely profitable_. Countries don’t do what’s best for their people, they do what’s best for the people in power. Virtually every oligarch in every country benefits massively from the absence of a gold standard. Why would they want to hamper their own profits? What, so some poor schmuck on the street can afford a cheeseburger? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/72 "2018-12-15T01:42:16Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Libya (just google “Gaddafi gold oil” - I’m not playing a game of “do you like this source or that source” when there are literally thousands to choose from). Iraq was also targeted because Sadam was pushing for a Euro/oil exchange. Again, I specifically said “threats to the petrodollar.” OK, I did that. _Twelve_ results, from a mixture of Blogspot and Wordpress websites to a couple from “[halaltube.com](http://halaltube.com)”. Very compelling. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/73 "2018-12-15T01:49:00Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Libya (just google “Gaddafi gold oil” - I’m not playing a game of “do you like this source or that source” when there are literally thousands to choose from). … Yeah, there’s no reputable sources, just gold bug conspiracy theorists. Those aint cites. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/74 "2018-12-15T01:49:24Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Libya (just google “Gaddafi gold oil” - I’m not playing a game of “do you like this source or that source” when there are literally thousands to choose from) Iraq was also targeted because Sadam was pushing for a Euro/oil exchange. Again, I specifically said “threats to the petrodollar.” What you point at is called a [Google vomit](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Google%20Vomit). Really, to take you seriously one has to see **what** sources are the ones you are relying on and what their arguments are, otherwise, one gets then to rely on the ones I have seen as more reliable, like Foreign Policy Magazine: > **[Debunking the Dumping-the-Dollar Conspiracy](https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/10/07/debunking-the-dumping-the-dollar-conspiracy/)** > > On Monday, the Independent reported that a number of countries are conspiring to dump the dollar as the primary oil trade currency, spelling disaster for… > [@](#): > > On Monday, the Independent reported that a number of countries are conspiring to dump the dollar as the primary oil trade currency, spelling disaster for the U.S. economy. But the United States wouldn’t need to fear – even if it were true. > > For at least the last decade, a persistent, recurring conspiracy theory has held that major oil exporters will stop pricing oil in dollars, which will then lead to a collapse in the U.S. economy as the dollar becomes worthless. According to some accounts, Iraq’s decision to price its oil in euros rather than dollars precipitated the U.S. overthrow of Saddam Hussein, and Iran’s threats to move away from the dollar is the real reason the U.S. government is raising the alarm over the country’s nuclear program. > > The latest item in this tradition was an article by Robert Fisk, a longtime Middle East correspondent, in the London-based Independent. The article warns of a grand conspiracy between the Arab oil states, China, Japan, Russia, and France to stop pricing oil in dollars by 2018. When this happens, Fisk says, the dollar will suffer a severe blow to its international standing and the United States might struggle to pay for its oil. The article apparently caused a shudder in the currency markets yesterday, as panicked investors unloaded dollars in reaction to the terrifying prospect of this alleged international oil conspiracy. > > But they really shouldn’t be concerned. Fisk’s theory would make a good plot for a Hollywood movie, but it doesn’t make much sense as economics. It is true that oil is priced in dollars and that most oil is traded in dollars, but these facts make relatively little difference for the status of the dollar as an international currency or the economic well-being of the United States. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > OK, I did that. _Twelve_ results, from a mixture of Blogspot and Wordpress websites to a couple from “[halaltube.com](http://halaltube.com)”. Very compelling. Indeed, I did not even had to search _just the way he stipulated_, Google vomits like the ones from **etasyde** are made to make their targets go into wild goose chases, problem for them is that I have experience on finding what the better sources tell us about about an item. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/75 "2018-12-15T01:52:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What you point at is called a [Google vomit](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Google%20Vomit). Really, to take you seriously one has to see **what** sources are the ones you are relying on and what their arguments are, otherwise, one gets then to rely on the ones I have seen as more reliable, like Foreign Policy Magazine: > > [Debunking the Dumping-the-Dollar Conspiracy – Foreign Policy](https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/10/07/debunking-the-dumping-the-dollar-conspiracy/) > > Indeed, I did not even had to search, Google vomits like the ones from **etasyde** are made to make their targets go into wild goose chases, problem for them is that I have experience on finding what the better sources tell us about about an item. Yeah, but even if they did price the oil in Euros, that’s not the Gold Standard. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/76 "2018-12-15T01:54:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, but even if they did price the oil in Euros, that’s not the Gold Standard. Until some nations do so, it is better not to dwell on conversations about unicorns, I rather talk about horses. Or to point about how unrealistic some ideologies are. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/77 "2018-12-15T02:02:13Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > A lot of people of all political stripes (including myself), not just libertarians, believe the fed is unconstitutional. No. Only a very small percent of people believe a central bank is unconstitutional, and they are almost all of them libertarians. If you are personally a non-libertarian believer that the Fed is unconstitutional, you are a sparkling rainbow-tailed unicorn, a precious specimen of mystical rarity. > [@pkbites](#): > > [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM) explains some things and is entertaining to boot. For those who are unaware, that link goes to a fairly famous Jewish-bank-conspiracy video. At the 24 min mark, the video implies that the sinister banking powers behind the Fed, previously described as the “Red Shields” (Rothschilds) and depicted as black spidery creatures (yes, really), murdered JFK because he was trying to re-implement a metallic monetary system in the US. “6 months later, John F Kennedy went to Dallas, and neverrr rrreturrrned.” “No! Way! No way they could do that!” Perhaps it is needless to say, but to state it clearly: Almost every detail of the modern monetary system, as described in that video, is factually incorrect. It gets almost nothing right. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/78 "2018-12-15T02:08:29Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What you point at is called a [Google vomit](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Google%20Vomit). No, see this kind of dismissive crap is why I put exactly 0 effort into sourcing things for you. If I do cite sources (Libya specifically has leaked documents from the effing secretary of state - but heaven help me if I mention her name, because suddenly I’m an anti-hillary conspiracy theorist [nevermind that I voted for her in the primary against obama, and in her presidential run]) I’m a conspiracy theorist. If I don’t cite sources, it’s google vomit. Okay captain armchair, you win. Go on believing whatever you want and dismissing everyone with a contrary opinion. Great way to pump your ego, not exactly useful for ascertaining reality though. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/79 "2018-12-15T02:14:06Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > No, see this kind of dismissive crap is why I put exactly 0 effort into sourcing things for you. You seem to miss points wildly, in this case I pointed that indeed you are doing that and still there is no serious source that supports what you claim. Incidentally: [Libya watchers aren’t so sure that Blumenthal was passing the US Secretary Of State solid intelligence.](https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/gy9d49/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011) So, yeah, you do rely on vomits from the internet and unreliable narrators to base your posts. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124/80 "2018-12-15T02:20:19Z")
More recent info of how unreliable those sources from Libya were: > **[Blumenthal says he didn't write Libya intel he sent Clinton](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/blumenthal-didnt-write-any-of-the-libya-intelligence-he-sent-clinton-119081)** > > He claims he merely copied and pasted memos from a former CIA officer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-libertarians-always-want-to-abolish-the-federal-reserve/826124.md?page=5)