Why do Libertarians do Poorly in General Elections?

One of the big failures of Libertarians is their inability to get across the concept of the free market as a regulating force. The opponents of free markets always start with the assumption that government is necessary to regulate our affairs, and without it we will have chaos and will have to RELY on the good will of others, because no other force controls them. Thus, Libertarians are marginalized as dreamers or utopians.

In fact, the vast majority of human endeavour involves voluntary cooperation, with structure being provided by the nature of the market. Government only regulates and controls a small portion of human interaction, and most of what it does has resulted in failure or at least tremendous waste and inefficiency.

Almost every language known to man evolved without a controlling body dictating its direction.

The computer industry is almost completely free of government regulation, yet it has better universal standards than the highly regulated auto and housing industries. Workers are paid more, the machines are of high quality, and the progress in that field has been stunning.

Throughout the history of the computer industry, there have been various attempts to regulate it. Can you imagine the results if the government had required that, say, a microprocessor design be approved by government before being sold to the people?

Imagine if the government had decided to subsidize the Intel 8086 in order to ‘improve access’ to poor people? There would have been no incentive to create better processors. We’d still be in the dark ages. New CPU designs would require multi-year government approvals which would cost tens of millions of dollars, forcing small competitors like AMD and Cyrix out of the market (or more likely, never allowing them to exist in the first place). Because computers would still be so expensive, the government would subsidize the poor and create a whole new ‘computer equality’ department.

Today, we’d be sitting here with our government regulated 80286 computers, and a maverick like me would come along and say, “You know, we’d be better off if we got the government out of the computer industry.” Can you imagine the howls of protest?

“But what if someone makes a bad processor that fails in a plant and causes an industrial accident???”

“What if the chip in my car fails?”

“Who’s going to provide computers for the poor?”

The fact is, when government steps in and tries to solve a problem, it has the effect of displacing market-driven solutions. Over time, it looks like there could be no alternative. If the government provided universal shoes to all, eventually it would come to be seen as a necessary form of government, and anyone suggesting that private shoe manufacturers might be a better solution would be accused of wanting the poor to walk barefoot.

Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize)
Julian Simon (Nobel Prize)
Ludwig Von Mises (Nobel Prize)
Adam Smith (father of modern economics)
David Ricardo
David Friedman

That’s just off the top of my head. There is an entire school of Economists that believe the self-regulated free market is the best organizer of the affairs of men. In fact, I would argue that it is the statist economists who are in the minority. It is the statists that are out of step with economic theory, not the Libertarians. In fact, the typical arguments justifying the existance of big government are almost always built out of exceptions to classical economic theory, rather than an embracing of it.

I suggest you look at the example of New Zealand. NZ went from having one of the most heavily regulated and subsized agriculture industries to one of the least. When New Zealand killed its farm subsidies and regulations, there were howls of protests from farmers and socialists who claimed the world was about to collapse. New Zealand’s agriculture industry is now far healthier than it has ever been.

But another failing of Libertarians is that they are always allowing themselves to be put on the defensive. The burden of proof should be on YOU to show why agriculture controls are necessary, given that you live in a capitalist country with an overwhelming preference for the free market. Explain to me the necessity of the Wool and Mohair subsidy, please. How about Milk tariffs that charge dairies based on how far away from consumers they are? How about subsidized transportation that REWARDS other types of farmers for being farther away from their constituents? How about subsidies given to farmers to NOT grow crops? Please tell me again why you need to keep the Rural Electrification Administration, and why its budget has INCREASED even thought 99.9% of all farms now have electricity?

I’ll make it easy for you - pick ANY of these programs, and give me a reasoned argument for why it is necessary, and why the free market can’t do as good as or better than the government at solving whatever problem it purports to solve.

pldennison:

Not that I want to hijack the discussion away from Gad (who seems to be doing a fine job); I just like answering questions like this!

  1. Under the current situation (OSHA oversight), it is quite decidedly in your self-interest to provide a safe workplace. Under a libertarian system, with no fines for unsafe working conditions, it may be in your best interest financially to avoid the cost of safety improvements unless forced to upgrade your equipment/methods/etc. by loss of worker interest in your company, or because of heavy contractual penalties (- see # 2). It may even be financially feasible to maintain your high production at the cost of an occassional breach of contract suit (much in the manner some companies currently choose to pollute due to the weak fines imposable by EPA); as a peaceful and honest employer, you should consult with actuaries so you don’t end up reducing the share-holders’ returns by needlessly improving your facility.

  2. You’ve committed breach of contract. Of course, you may be able to hire most of your required workforce without any such safety clause in their contracts. (Yay for you!) Where’s your factory located? What’s the mean education level of the workforce? With what businesses are you competing for the workforce?

  3. Possibly. You’re a peaceful and honest person, so I’m not going to tell you how to live your life. How adequately do you think you can protect your own safety working for that employer?
    Libertarian:

Quit killing us with information, Lib!! Enough already with these verbose responses.

Sam: I’m off to lunch, but I’m pretty sure that Adam Smith said no such thing. You wouldn’t happen to have a cite, would you?

One more thing: I’m not necessarily in favor of any of the programs you listed re: agriculture, as you’ll see from the part of my post that you quoted. I certainly think we should take a look at farm subsidies. That doesn’t mean that the free market would automatically do it better, unless you have some specific proposal that would eliminate all the bad stuff about our current system and keeps the good stuff (you know, like standards which combat Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, for one).

And the fact of the matter is that the onus is on the libertarians–not to point out the problems of the current system, but to explain how their particular parcel of platitudes would alleviate those problems without creating greater ones. If you read my posts on this board, you know that I’m about as big a fan of the current system as most libertarians. But I also know my history, and I’m wary of any proposed revision which looks to duplicate past mistakes–there was, after all, a reason for government oversight of the marketplace, and for every Milton Friedman I can show you a John Maynard Keynes. So don’t tell me that the burden is mine to prove that the libertarian system won’t work…especially when y’all can’t ever seem to decide amongst yourselves what the libertarian system is. Aside from a haven for peaceful, honest people, of course.

If you’ve got no problem discussing its liabilities, you’ll be the first. Most people defend the FDA by pointing to things like Thalidomide and showing how the FDA saved lives.

But my assertion is that the FDA is, on balance, a very bad thing. The FDA has a chilling effect on drug development and medical innovation. One of the reasons health care is so expensive in the U.S. is because of the insane regulatory standards applied by the FDA.

A drug today takes an average of 12 years and 170 million dollars to make it through FDA approval. And yet we face a crisis in the skyrocketing costs of prescription drugs. Most people blame the evil corporations for charging $50 for a pill that costs 10 cents to make. But the fact is that a drug company typically has to apply for a patent before submitting for FDA approval. If it takes ten years to get that approval, then the drug company only has a few years left to recoup its original research costs, plus the hundreds of millions of dollars for FDA approval, before the drug enters the public domain and generics take away the bulk of its market. Thus, the high cost of new prescription drugs.

There are many former drug companies that simply folded their tents and gave up. We are all poorer as a result.

Then there is the loss of life while valuable drugs are stalled in an overly-bureaucratic approval process. The FDA likes to point out how their approval process saved hundreds or thousands of Thalidomide babies from deformity, when Britain went ahead and approved Thalidomide while the FDA sat on it.

What you WON’T hear the FDA talk about is that it held Beta Blockers off the market for seven years after they were available to the rest of the world. These are drugs that are estimated to save something like 50,000 lives a YEAR in the U.S. Do is the FDA responsible for the deaths of 350,000 people? How come no one takes it to task for that? Can you imagine the furor if an unregulated drug killed 350,000 people? It was incidents MUCH smaller than this that led to the creation of the FDA in the first place.

Then there is the potentially catastrophic effect of having one universal approving agency. In the old, pre-FDA days, the person who decided whether or not to try a new drug was your prescribing physician. He would weigh things like unknown risks vs the severity of your illness, your personal tolerance of risk, etc. The result was that drugs were introduced into society very slowly, with the sickest people or highest risk-takers trying them first. If a problem with the drug was uncovered, it usually happened before the drug entered widespread usage.

Now, the FDA is your one-stop approval shop. When they approve a drug, it tends to go into widespread use IMMEDIATELY. Thus, if they screw up and approve a deadly drug the results could be catastrophic. The FDA compensates for this by being extremely conservative. Hence the 12 year wait for new drugs. But even then they can make a mistake. They approved Phen-Phen, which went into widespread use before it was discovered that it could damage heart valves.

In any event, people are all different, and have different tolerances for drug risks. A person dying of pancreatic cancer certainly has nothing to lose by trying an uncertified drug. But the FDA doesn’t distinguish between individuals. It took the highly political AIDS crisis for people to begin to even look at the way the FDA certifies drugs, and their response was to create a special exemption just for AIDS sufferers. Why only them? Doesn’t the admission of problems in the regulatory process apply to everyone?

Then there is the cost of the FDA, which we pay for in taxes. Then there is its general tendency to seek power and start regulating things that were never in its mandate (environmental issues, tobacco, etc). It has become a militant organization largely out of step with mainstream American beliefs.

BAN the FDA.

Interesting assertion. Cite?

As of 1985, OSHA had already spent more money than the entire Apollo Space Program. During that time, incidence of worker accidents and safety claims went UP. OSHA burdens companies with extensive regulations and burns up amazing amounts of taxpayer money, with very little or no positive effect.

But your response brings up a bigger issue: One of the defining characteristics of Liberals is that they never see fundamental problems with big government - when things go wrong, they just assume that the last guys to try it simply weren’t as smart as they are. It’s an insidious form of conceit - elect US, because we’re clever enough to make government work when generations of politicians before us ended in failure.

Laissez-Faire capitalists would argue that the problems of big government are not the result of the skills or motivations of the people running that governmnet, but by its very nature. It is DESTINED to fail. Top-down control of a complex system never works - you need negative feedback in your control loop or things spiral out of control. Only the market provides that level of instant feedback.

A modern economy is simply far too complex for central planners to manage. Witness Hillary Clinton’s Health Care Plan, which started out as a ‘simple’ system, and ballooned into thousands of pages of red tape which collapsed under its own weight. And those thousands of pages weren’t enough - you can’t hope to describe the workings of a complex system like that in MILLIONS of pages. It can’t be done. But every new statist that comes along has a ‘plan’, and his plan is always better than the last guy’s. This is also why people like Al Gore are always going on about ‘cleaning up’ Washington, or battling ‘Waste, Fraud, an Abuse’. They think they can tinker with government and make it all work the way it is supposed to. And that simply cannot happen. They might streamline a little thing here or there, cancel a bit of pork here and there, get rid of a few bad apples here and there, but they will never change the fundamental nature of government. And it is that fundamental nature that is government’s own worst enemy.

Maybe that’s true, Sam. But some of us critics of free markets simply believe that the market is a mechanism, not a god. It’s an extremely useful device for setting prices, and allocating goods and services, in the vast majority of situations. But it’s ultimately no substitute for human judgment.

Should the amount spent on an indigent’s defense in a capital case be determined by the market? Should preservation of natural habitat for endangered species be determined by the market? (Pity the grizzly bear; it hasn’t adapted to a cash economy.) Should the market alone decide whether employers have certain obligations to provide a safe workplace? Should the market determine what sort of education you get while you’re still a child? Should underage orphans have to work to live if charity fails to provide for them? (Should they have to work to support themselves if their parents fail to provide for them?)

In all these cases, we’ve decided that the market isn’t God; that our collective judgment is superior. I’m not saying (in this debate, anyway) that any of those choices is the right one; I’m just trying to establish the principle that the vast majority of us would agree that there are some decisions that shouldn’t unthinkingly be ceded to the market.

And that, IMHO, is why libertarians don’t do well in the polls. We already have the vast majority of the ‘civil liberties’ side of libertarianism: prostitution is illegal, but porn is more easily available than anytime in history; certain drugs are illegal, but one doesn’t have to travel very far to gamble; gay rights still aren’t equal to those of straights, but they’re closer than they’ve ever been; and so forth.

What we don’t have is economic libertarianism, and the reason for that is that that’s what we had in the late 19th century, and we decided it was a bad idea. Most people have a gut feeling that it still is. And as long as that’s so, libertarians will continue to do poorly in elections.

Unproven, and with the fallacy that because MOST of what it does is a failure and/or inefficient, therefore EVERYTHING that it does is a failure and/or inefficient. You want to say that the government should stop providing farm subsidies, I’ll agree with you. You want to say that the government shouldn’t force food producers to adhere to a certain standard of quality, and I’ll laugh at you.

Discounting Noah Webster, Strunk and Wagnall’s, and Oxford.

“Workers are paid more.” Which workers? Are you saying that computer engineers are getting paid more than assembly line workers? If so, well, big duh- there’s a reason that you need a degree to design computers but don’t for working on an assembly line. Pay is comesurate with training and hard-to-find skills. Now, if you’re trying to argue that computer engineers get paid more money than automobile designers, I’d love to see some facts and figures on that.

“Machines are of high quality.” I’ll remember that the next time my power supply shorts out for no particular reason, yet my Saturn has been running fine for 8 years with only the occasional oil change.

“The progress in that field has been stunning.” But not when compared to the first twenty years that the automobile existed; that was just as stunning. Or was the evil government regulations instituted by Warren G. Harding what killed the auto industry?

Huh. Given that it was government demand through military applications that first led to the development of things such as the personal computer and, oh, say, the Internet you happen to be accessing right now, I’m not sure that a complete lack of government action with computers would necessarily have changed things for the better.

And as for regulation and this “subsidize the poor”- kindly, please, give me any cites whatsoever that such plans were started and had any chance of passing through Congress. Your statement is that government does awful things and thus must be stopped, even though the awful things you cite never actually happened, and therefore the drastic methods you propose to fix the matter are akin to radical organ transplants for someone who you think had a chance to catch a cold a few years ago.

And sometimes- and remember, you’re hearing this from a conservative Republican- there is no real effective alternative to government action. After all, Microsoft is full of peaceful, honest people, but they don’t need to produce efficient goods because the market doesn’t offer much in the way of alternatives. If the government steps in to break them up (and would your Libertarian system do the same, or would they consider such dangerous government interference in the absolute free market?), then the system will likely improve.
Earlier, Sam Stone said:

Sorry for the harsh words before; I didn’t realize you were over a hundred years old.

If you aren’t, I kindly suggest you read a history books. Please kindly read about the Haymarket riots. And the anarchist movement. And the fact that in the 1870’s the U.S. built forts within its major cities to help fend against massive worker uprising. Note that the specific period you mention- the early 1900’s- was the beginning of the period where people felt they had to turn to the government as the only authority willing to step in and break up the massive trusts that were gouging the average American. Read Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle for a good idea of what those peaceful, honest citizens were putting into hotdogs and sausages. Careful not to read it over breakfast, or like Teddy Roosevelt (who, according to legend, did read it over his morning sausages), you’ll immediately set to work on establishing an FDA.
Or, to quote Santayana, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Phil:

  1. Depends on how you define ‘self-interest’. Over time, many employers have clearly believed that it’s been in their self-interest to fail to provide a safe workplace.

  2. Damned if I know. (“Fraud” is usually the wrong answer, btw.) What I do know is that our justice system is, by and large, stacked in favor of the side with money; why this would be any different in Libertaria, I’m not sure. But if the employer is a corporation, then it’s the corporation that gets punished, not any responsible individual. (Maybe that would change in Libertaria, but I’m not betting on it.) And if I lose my life, or get paralyzed, or whatever, in a workplace accident, no punishment to a corporation hurts the responsible individuals in anything approaching the way I’ve been hurt; an exec or two might have to retire in disgrace, with a golden parachute of greater value than every penny I’ve ever made. The power relationships that make that the way it generally is, here and now, would only be exacerbated in Libertaria, where money doesn’t merely talk: it rules.

  3. Many people have done so because they had little alternative, period. Others have done so because there was no other way to provide a decent start in life for their children. What’s ‘smart’?

And so it would be for at least three or four days after the Libertarians got elected. :slight_smile:

And then, we’d find that James Buchanan (the economist, not the other one) was right…

RTFirefly:

That’s it, precisely. The market is the mechanism with which humans make their decisions regarding the availbale options for things. All things.

Of course not. Human judgement is what makes the market do what it does. The market doesn’t make decisions; it isn’t an entity. It is the place where humans meet to decide what they want and what it is worth to them. And each human is responsible for his or her own decisions.

The market is the collective decisions of people. That’s the definition of the market. If there are not people, individual people, out there making decisions and choosing among different options, there is no market. Government–our government, anyway–is largely dedicated to the process of removing those options.

We had no such thing. We had robber baron capitalism.

John Corrado

Now, you know better than that . . . none of those publications was anything but descriptive.

I would submit that those people were neither peaceful nor honest.

RTFirefly:

What if we lived in a society in which the employers you mentioned suffered a mass exodus of workers who decided they did not want to work in an unsafe workplace? And they told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on, and so on . . .)

What exactly is the side with money going to buy? In Libertaria, breach of contract is a fraud. You know, one of those things the non-coercion principle is against? If an employer has breached a contract, no amount of money is going to hide that.

In my Libertaria, there is no limited liability corporation or any other such legal fiction. People, not entities, are to be held responsible for their actions.

Good heavens . . . why does everybody think this? In Libertaria, you have the same rights that Bill Gates does, literally. No more, no less. The right to make decisions with respect to your property, which includes your life, your mind, your home, and the clothes on your back.

GOod question. If they thought that was the best decision for their life, who are you and I to question them?

Regarding Rufe’s assertion that given the nature of power, money would rule in Liberaria, pldennison says:

Please refer to my point on “pocketbook democracy.” If policy preferences are expressed by the consumer choices we make, those with more money have greater latitude in effecting policy.

Also, Phil, have you abandoned discussion of rationality, per my last post to you?

Agreed, which is generally my point about libertarianism; it assumes peaceful, honest citizens, or at least a fool-proof way of preventing those who aren’t from doing harm. However, apply those conditions- peaceful, honest, perfect citizens- to any system, including the “we use a duck for all currency” system, and they all work just as well as libertarianism. Libertarianism is a tool for perfect societies; those who say that libertarianism will make us a perfect society are incorrect, as libertarianism only works given an already perfect society.

But it’s funny how the lowest wage offered by employers increases in lockstep with the minimum wage.

OK, I was using “the market makes decisions” metaphorically. But as my previous for-instance demonstrates, we can override what we acknowledge would be our collective decision through the mechanism of the market with another made through the legislative process.

So you claim. I’d say that the market is the collective unthinking decisions of people; democracy attempts to be, and sometimes succeeds in being, the deliberative decisions of a group of people.

And by removing a handful of possible decisions, we have made a greater array of decisions possible for many people. For instance, when the government decided to back long-term mortgages, it made us a nation of homeowners. When the government decided to subsidize a college education for the GIs returning from WWII, it greatly widened the career choices of a generation of Americans. And so forth. Undoubtedly, someone had to be deprived of a choice somewhere for these things to happen. But collectively, our choices were greatly widened by whatever minimal denial of choice was involved.

There’s a difference?

To where? To another unsafe workplace? I’d argue that as long as there aren’t enough safe workplaces to provide full employment, unsafe workplaces would be the standard.

Money’s going to buy better representation. Failing to live up to the terms of a contract is never fraud if the breaching party can show that it entered the contract with the intent of fulfilling it, and every expectation that it could, and that while it failed to honor the contract, it made a good-faith effort to honor it. In a civil suit where preponderance of the evidence is the standard, good lawyers can carry the day over mediocre ones.

Maybe miracles will happen in Libertaria, and courts will seek and almost invariably find the truth. And maybe Libertaria will have calorie-free pizza.

Limited liability corporations would exist in Libertaria because people would demand them: as mechanisms for creation of wealth, they are quite remarkable things. (I’m not anti-corporation; I just hate being inside a pulp sci-fi story where the robots have gained the upper hand over humans - only it’s corporations, not robots.)

And they would also exist because capital would win out and make it happen.

But in Libertaria, the poor person is one bad decision from having to sell himself into slavery. (Do they allow the refuge of bankruptcy in Libertaria? Another of those questions whose answer is hard to derive from first principles.) Bill Gates doesn’t have to worry about that; he can be the one buying the slaves. The same de jure rights for rich and poor can simply translate into the right of the rich person to own the poor person, with non serviam equalling death or imprisonment.

Who said anything about questioning them? As I indicated with examples earlier in this post, I’m after giving them a better array of choices in the first place.

Some of the major differences between now and then are that we have much better communications, better technology overall, and more wealth for everyone.

The trusts that came under fire in the late 19th century were often the creation of government. The railroads gained monopoly through government power. Standard Oil was given land grants and exercised tremendous political power through corrupt government.

A lot of people then were powerless because they were much, much poorer than the poor of today. They physically could not move from place to place, they did not have access to communication with other groups (which prevented tools like class action lawsuits from being used), etc.

Please don’t forget that the government would still enable one huge check on corruption and dangerous products - Tort law. When a tobacco company can be bankrupted by a civil case, I fail to see why we also need government to regulate them. And if anything, government regulation stands in the way of tort law - if a manufacturer meets minimum government safety specifications it acts as a shield against civil action. In a non-regulated industry, the manufacturers are held to a much more nebulous standard of due care, current accepted engineering practices, etc. This requires them to be even more vigilant.

There is evidence that non-regulated industries tend to have higher standards of quality and safety than do regulated industries. When the government sets standards, it removes safety as a marketable quality, and companies have no incentive to meet standards other than the minimum required by law. This is why you don’t see ads promoting the safety aspects of certain brands of electrical wire, etc. People don’t care - if the government says it’s safe, that’s good enough for us. In a non-regulated industry, these things become sales points, and companies will compete with each other.

I can offer one example: The homebuilt aircraft industry vs the incredibly regulated factory airplane industry. The government sets the ‘G’ loading requirements for utility category aircraft at +4.4 G’s. And the vast majority of light airplanes are designed to this strength limit and no more. There is no longer a competitive advantage to be gained by offering a stronger airplane, and savings can be made in weight by building to the minimum standard.

The homebuilt aircraft industry does not have that standard, and indeed has no government regulation at all. But the kits that are available are almost all designed to a higher standard than factory aircraft, simply because consumers care about those issues. As a result, the accident rate of homebuilt aircraft is about the same as factory built airplanes, despite the total absence of regulations, and despite the fact that homebuilts are usually of much higher performance, built by untrained people in an uncontrolled environment, and test flown by people who are not qualified to be test pilots.

Another force protecting the consumer: Insurance companies. If an auto manufacturer makes a dangerous vehicle, insurance rates for that vehicle go up. This gives auto makers an incentive to make safer cars. Underwriter’s Laboratories is not a government agency, but a PRIVATE organization run by insurance companies. Its standards are higher than the government’s, and almost every consumer product made today that uses electricity is UL approved.

When safety is a competitive force, other mechanisms come into play - industries often find that it is to their benefit to form standards bodies and external safety regulators, in order to more easily penetrate the market as a whole.

And don’t forget that in a Libertarian society people would still have a right to unionize and strike. This acts as a check on employer abuse. And with today’s better communications, information about workplace safety and other issues detrimental to the public is easier to widely disseminate, meaning that it’s much more damaging to the employers.

There ARE rare situations where the market breaks down. These so-called ‘market failures’ happen when an industry controls physical access (as in an offshore oil rig, or a company town), or controls a resource that has limited availability (the airwaves, Technical Monopolies like DeBeers Diamonds), when the damages a company does are so widely distributed that no one person can afford to fight them, etc. There is some limited role for government therefore in pollution control, contract legislation, anti-trust laws, etc. But even in these areas we should be looking at market-based solutions (for instance, ‘pollution credits’ that companies can trade, rather than hard regulation).

My pet theory-to-explain-everything:

The reason the Libertarian Party does so abyssmally in public elections is entirely the fault of the way the Gallup Polls phrase the big question prior to the election.

Gallup asks, “If the election were held right now, who would you vote for?”. Then they display this poll on TV. And in every one, the Libertarians end up with around 1% of the vote or less.

But if Gallup instead were to ask, “If the election were held right now, who would you want to be President?”, the results would be markedly different. There would be a lot more votes for Libertarians.

Why? Because the way the question is phrased right now, most people will choose the lesser of two evils, just like they do in the real election, because they’re being asked their voting behavior. And since people tend to base their election decisions on who they think has a chance of winning, the little guys (including the Libertarians) will never be seen as viable candidates because the polls say nobody wants them. But the way I want the question to be phrased would be like asking, “Okay, every candidate, big and small, has received the same number of votes. It’s a dead heat. Your vote, and your vote alone, will break the tie and determine the next President. Whom do you choose?”. In that situation, a lot more people would be willing to pick a Libertarian, wouldn’t they?

The ‘Vote wasting’ argument makes no sense. It is propagated by the mainstream parties in order to scare everyone into voting for them.

If you want your vote to ‘make a difference’, then you’re going to have much more effect by voting for the fringe candidate who best supports your beliefs. After all, it’s not going to matter much whether George Bush or Al Gore win by 3 points or 6, but it will matter tremendously if the Libertarians (or Greens, or Reform) get 6 percent of the vote instead of 3. Of course none of these parties are going to elect a president in this election, but the way things work is that they have to build credibility for the NEXT election. If the Libertarians gain 6% of the vote this time, they’ll have a good shot at being included in debates next time, as Perot did. If they perform well in those debates (and get the added media exposure that a legitimate 3rd party gets), then perhaps in the next election they’ll get 15% of the vote. This exposure may get a few Libertarians elected to minor offices, and give them a chance to prove their policies. Eventually, perhaps 20 years down the road, they could become a legitimate contender. But if no one ever votes for the fringes, you’re going to be stuck with the RepubliCrats forever. If that’s what you want, fine. If it’s not, don’t just go with the crowd for fear of ‘wasting’ your vote.

And even without that consideration, the effect of having your party gain 6% of the vote is that the mainstream politician who gets elected will have to pander to that voting block by moving in the direction you want.

A REAL waste of your vote is to ignore a candidate that might pull the government in the direction you want, just so you can vote for a mainstream guy that has a chance of being elected.

I’m not just speaking to Libertarians here. If you’re an environmental activist, your vote will do a lot more good if you cast it for the Green Party than if you cast it for Al Gore, unless you happen to cast the deciding vote in a 200 million person election. Not very likely.

tracer: I think they ought to add your question, or some variant, to the opinion polls. Perhaps something like: “if your vote alone decided the winner of the Presidential race, who would you vote for?” It would show whether there was an underserved political market, so to speak, out there.

Sam:

Vote wasting - the problem is, until the election is over, we frequently don’t know who’s going to win. It could well be that way this year. If one of the Big Two had the election locked, regardless of my vote, it might be a different story. But even though I’m left of the Democratic mainstream, I’m quite aware that there’s a vast gap between the policies of Bush and Gore, and to me it’s quite important to make sure Shrub finishes second this year.

(Also, the Greens are too far out for me on a considerable number of points, judging by their website - and then Gore decided to run as a Democrat, rather than as GOP-lite, which is behavior I feel I ought to encourage. But I digress.)

Powerlessness - the way power is present and absent is surely very different from a century or so ago. But fact is, as I pointed out in some detail on the special interests thread, much legislation is passed today that the public has in no way demanded of their legislators, and is often essentially unaware of, simply because the big-bucks boys want it. Even on the high-visibility issues, the money usually wins when up against the vast majority of public sentiment: take the tobacco legislation that had all but passed Congress a few years back, or the patients’ bill of rights, or the airline travelers’ bill of rights, or…you get the drift. It’s still more our country than theirs.

Or take working conditions. Here, in a booming economy, a friend of mine, skilled in high-tech mumbo-jumbo that I barely understand (worked for Lycos and other outfits like that) tried to negotiate a reduced work week when he went back out on the job market late last year. He succeeded - in getting a sixty-hour week. (Companies will leave money on the table elsewhere to hold the line on labor matters. Yessiree. They know that, even now, overall, workers need one employer more than they need any one worker; absent unionization or legislation, they’ve still got the greater share of power.) So don’t even get me started about labor conditions in, say, poultry processing.

Mobility - A great deal of the population is far less mobile than you’d think, even now. I lived in far southwest Virginia for five years, and most of the people down there really were just scraping by, even in 1998 (when I left). If you’re in such circumstances and have kids, you can’t afford to move away from your support network, unless you’re moving to a much better job. And how the hell are you going to find out about that job? I’m not sure that, even now, their sorts of jobs are on the Internet. (That will probably change, and eventually even Appalachian working poor will be Net-literate, but that’s not here yet, trust me.)

But no free-market thinker that I know of has ever calculated the costs to a family of relocating for a job: all the fraying of the network of friendships, church, schools, all the having to start over in a new place…you can only do that so many times in a lifetime. (Military families do it all the time, but when they get to their new posting, they tend to find familiar faces already there. Different story entirely.) To some extent, people are limited in their freedom to move because they’re people. Corporations can move factories around the globe like chess pieces, perhaps; we can’t do that so easily with our lives.

Tort law v. legislation - maybe you haven’t noticed, but there’s a powerful bias in this society against accomplishing an end through the courts that could be achieved instead with legislation. Passing laws is understood as having legitimacy; using the courts instead is usually seen as an end run, legitimate only if the special interests are widely seen to have made Congress impassable. I don’t think that’s going to change here anytime soon.

Insurance companies - a wash, IMO. They’ve acted to make the auto industry safer (aided by the government requirement that we buy insurance), but insuring their profitability is a major addition to the cost of medical care in the USA, and their influence is a major obstacle to reform.

BTW, the auto industry is an instance where, despite fairly high minimum safety standards, many (and eventually almost all) car companies went past those minimums, to make increasingly safer vehicles. I couldn’t tell you whether dual air bags are a requirement now (probably, I suppose), but most car makers put them in well before they were required because car buyers demanded them, and safety sold. (Still does - that’s why housewives are buying monstrous SUVs to drive to the grocery store.)

Unionization - I’m skeptical of how that would work in a libertarian society. Unionization and the ability to strike isn’t a very potent threat unless (a) employment is very close to full, (b) the workers really aren’t very replaceable, or © the employers are restricted from bringing in replacement workers. Since conditions (a) and (b) are fairly infrequent, that leaves ©, and I see that restriction as being antithetical to libertarianism.

Finally, I’d characterize market failures as more than occasional in our society. For instance, one major market failure has totally eluded the press: the demise of the forty-hour work week, which has come about due to the increasing number of workplaces where everybody’s a ‘professional’ who is expected to work until the job’s done. Now that professionals aren’t an elite, they’re just drones that management wants to get the most out of for the least bucks, so the job is increasingly designed to be well beyond a forty-hour-a-week job.

Why this is a market failure is simple: a functioning society expects workers to be many other things besides - parents, participants in civic life, volunteers (at least, conservative politicians expect the wonders of volunteerism to solve a host of problems), and so forth. If the work week expands, there are too few hours left for everything else. And since commuting takes more time, and the complexities of modern life keep on increasing, the demands of work need to decrease, rather than increase, just so we can keep even.

So market failures may be significant and ongoing, rather than rare, low-impact flukes.

Just to briefly get back to directly addressing the OP. As an outsider it struck me that the face – true or false – of Libertarianism is white, wealthy, middle class, somewhat elitist and most definitely male.

I’m open to other idea’s but if my impression is reflected in the general population, then it might explain some of the electoral problems.

I’d add that historically speaking, it occurred to me that electorates only turn to radical, ideology based politics (rather than perceived mainstream pragmatism) when the economy takes a serious turn for the worse.

Further, there might also be an issue of people instinctively preferring political parties that acknowledge (in one sense or another) some value in community.

I dunno, just call me old fashioned.