I do not know that. Though I’d say it’s more of a pressure issue than a time/degeneration issue- so however long it’d take for enough liquids to pool there to burst the capillary. How long that is? I think it varies from case to case depending on the method of death. Because you could have similar issues if the heart was simply beating too fast- the hypertension nose bleeds apply by this reason- no reason to say that the bleeding may have happened while the person was alive and continued into death if the person’s heart beat to the point of collapse/exhaustion.
I personally like the trauma to the lungs example- as that’s the best way to explain the blood coming out of the mouth, because again- the lungs are filled with capillaries, and there is always going to be some damage or trauma to the lungs usually.
That’s the problem, i don’t think there’s a hard and fast fixed answer for this, and it depends on the methods of death and the time and manner the body was handled.
Let me assure you, it occurs due to head trauma. When the skull is fractured and a hemorrhage in the brain is draining straight into the nasal sinuses, how could it *not *occur?
It could possibly happen, but your head would have to crushed in exactly the right place (ie between the bloody brain cavity and the sinuses - they are fully separated, of course, otherwise our cerebral fluid would drain out of our brains through our nose). If you shot yourself in the mouth I think the chances are high.
I’ve known many people with skull fractures and severe brain bleeding, and animals with crushed and exploded skulls and none of them has bled out of their nose/mouth. In fact a boxer in my area just died in the ring from skull fracture and brain bleeding and it sure didn’t happen to him.
I have seen lots of animals die and those that bleed from the mouth and nose afterwards have usually died from chest or head trauma, congestive heart failure, lung disease, electrocution, drowning, bleeding disorders, heat stroke (they usually go into DIC and bleed from every orifice) and a certain type of rat poison. I have seen many that have died from other causes that did not bleed after death and many times the bodies were left unfrozen for a couple hours after death so the owners could visit. I have also seen plenty of frozen corpses that did not have any post mortem bleeding.
Of course, that’s what I said in my first post. Nonetheless it does happen.
When you are euthansing an animal by crushing its skull it is almost universal.
When shooting an animal that is facing you it is also quite common. The (unfortunately overused) “between the eyes” shot in most mammals *only * results in damaging the sinuses and stunning the animal, missing the brain altogether. With such shots bleeding from the mouth/nose is also universal.
You, sir, are master of understatement.
Funnily enough, I said almost exactly the same thing in my first post.
Nonetheless bleeding from the mouth/nose is common in head injuries, and claiming, as you did, that it does not occur due to head trauma is simply wrong.
[In fact a boxer in my area just died in the ring from skull fracture and brain bleeding and it sure didn’t happen to him.
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:nod: I believe there are some Rat poisons that are simply Warfarin (an anticoagulant drug), which basically is presented in such fatal doses for a mouse that any injury it has sustained will not clot, and basically forces them to bleed to death, so yeah rat poisons’ def. one of those things that’ll cause bleeding from pretty much every pore of the mice.
And can have the same effect in humans but of course you’d need much larger doses.
I’m an EMT, and I’ve seen my share of dead people, and also my share of dead critters throughout my life.
Anything bleeding from the mouth, nose, and/or ears at death has an injury that caused it, be it a trauma, or a medical condition such as a bleeding ulcer, bleeding stroke, etc.
Said bleeding IS NOT automatic. A human can have a skull fracture that does not bleed externally.
Step back from a second… are you sure you’re talking about real blood? Hemorrhage?
Many people, including my students, are quick to call “blood” whatever looks reddish and stains a bit red. That is not blood… Blood has a specific composition, consists of red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets, and certain amounts of specific proteins and minerals.
What they’re calling “blood” is actually called serosanguineous fluid… Edema (extravascular fluid), with a variable protein count and type, and with few to some red blood cells. The red blood cells ended up outside the vessels either because the capillary ruptured, or due to increased capillary pressure causing erythrocytes to leak out one by one.
Serosanguineous fluid, small or a lot, I’ve seen regularly in many animals, and it may give a clue as to the proximal cause of death. True bleeding from the nose and mouth? Unless it is a post mortem artifact, it is an indicator of some underlying pathology.
Animals with congestive heart failure, or animals that had edema before dying will have increased amounts of this fluid than others, for example. Not necessarily THE clue needed to solve the cause of death, but just supporting evidence for different causes.
By post mortem artifact I meant if someone slashed, cut, or yanked something out of the dead animal, severing vessels. The animal was already dead, but that area may look a bloody mess and the pathologist has to make sure it was not there before death. Not common.
BTW, as others have said, the same thin watery fluid can occur just by having the animal lay around while it decomposes… Or by freezing it, then thawing it… Or by putting the animal in a cooler for extended periods of time.
I shouldn’t have said it ‘wasn’t’ due to head trauma. I didn’t mean to imply it never could be in any situation. And please, call me ma’am.
How do you determine it is ‘common’ in head injuries? Outside of completely crushed and mangled heads, which are a tiny minority of head injuries among humans, I would still assume it is very rare.
God grief no. Anyone who has ever seen a fight of a even football game knows how common bloody noses, spit lips, cut tongues and so forth are. Most serious impact to the face is going to result in bleeding from the nose or mouth.
Nosebleeds during fights, minor cuts to the face and tongue are just minor injuries… they can happen anywhere, it’s not the same thing.
For example, in the heroin overdose anecdote that was mentioned earlier… it’s true that drug users can have frequent nosebleeds. **But a 3 foot pool is alot of blood. ** vessels in the nose and sinus area are fairly small, and ruptures are sealed up relative quickly.
