# Why do medieval drawings look the way they do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 30, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989 "2009-12-30T00:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/21 "2009-12-30T19:25:30Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Another questions: Who was the victim supposed to be, and is this the earliest depiction of someone “hung down to his knees”? No wonder everyone’s pointing. [Hugh Despenser, 1st Lord Despenser](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Despenser_the_Younger) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/22 "2009-12-30T20:14:26Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Another questions: Who was the victim supposed to be, and is this the earliest depiction of someone “hung down to his knees”? No wonder everyone’s pointing. That does look like his cock, but it’s really just an illusion formed by the streak of blood down his thigh. You can see if you look closely that it’s not actually a long penis hanging down. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/23 "2009-12-30T20:17:47Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > No it’s not. > If you refer to the picture link it’s an encoded link. Maybe this thread should link to the wiki page then and not just a picture. I’ve never heard of Froissart and a link to the relevant page would have solved that. Asking whey the OP thought it was a genuine medieval picture is not unreasonable, because it was just a picture. It also does not give credit to the source since only a picture is linked without the credits. Here’s the wiki link: > **[Jean Froissart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Froissart)** > > Jean Froissart (Old and Middle French: Jehan; sometimes known as John Froissart in English; c. 1337 – c. 1405) was a French-speaking medieval author and court historian from the Low Countries who wrote several works, including Chronicles and Meliador, a long Arthurian romance, and a large body of poetry, both short lyrical forms as well as longer narrative poems. For centuries, Froissart's Chronicles have been recognised as the chief expression of the chivalric revival of the 14th-century kingdom... but according to wiki the painting was not done by Froissart but by Loiset Lyédet in the 1470s to accompany writings by Froissart. > [@](#): > > The text of Froissart’s Chronicles is preserved in more than 100 illuminated manuscripts, illustrated by a variety of miniaturists. One of the most lavishly illuminated copies was commissioned by Louis of Gruuthuse, a Flemish nobleman, in the 1470s. The four volumes of this copy (BNF, Fr 2643; BNF, Fr 2644; BNF, Fr 2645; BNF, Fr 2646) contain 112 miniatures painted by the best Brugeois artists of the day, among them Loiset Lyédet, to whom the miniatures in the first two volumes are attributed. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/24 "2009-12-30T20:18:41Z")
Just in case the fire doesn’t kill you, we’re gonna pull out a few feet of your intestine, too. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/25 "2009-12-30T20:25:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > That does look like his cock, but it’s really just an illusion formed by the streak of blood down his thigh. You can see if you look closely that it’s not actually a long penis hanging down. As a matter of fact, that’s already been removed: > [@http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh\_Despenser\_the\_Younger#Trial\_and\_Execution](#): > > He was then hanged from a gallows 50 ft (15 m) high, but cut down before he could choke to death, and was tied to a ladder, in full view of the crowd. **The executioner climbed up beside him, and sliced off his penis and testicles which were burnt before him, while he was still alive and conscious** ; (although castration was not formally part of the sentence imposed on Despenser, it was typically practised on convicted traitors). Subsequently, the executioner slit open his abdomen, and slowly pulled out, and cut out, his entrails and, finally, his heart, which were likewise thrown into the fire. The executioner would have sought to keep him alive as long as possible, while disembowelling him. The burning of his entrails would, in all likelihood, have been the last sight that he witnessed. Just before he died, it is recorded that he let out a “ghastly inhuman howl,” much to the delight and merriment of the spectators. Finally, his corpse was beheaded, his body cut into four pieces, and his head was mounted on the gates of London. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/26 "2009-12-30T20:36:29Z")
The use of the word “miniatures” makes me wonder how big this and similar painting were. Small size limits the detail an artist can include for things like faces. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/27 "2009-12-30T20:47:09Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > And why does the victum have a kielbasa where his intestines should be? And a Valentine shaped heart? And why is he giving a vaguely, sultry look to the guy with the knife? Do they have something going on after the disembowelment? > > The bases of the ladders are too close to the fire, where is OSHA? > > So many questions. Not to mention: does he have a stick up his perineum or is he _really_ HUNG? (I don’t think that’s quite what they meant by “hanged, drawn and quartered” ;)). (on preview, I see I’m not the first one to make this observation). ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/28 "2009-12-30T21:21:30Z")
I like this part from the link: > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, the execution has been criticized by some historians as inhumane, and it is unlikely that a similar practice would win the approbation of the British public today. Unlikely? ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/29 "2009-12-30T21:28:02Z")
[‘Miniature’](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=miniature) in a manuscript has nothing necessarily to do with the size. The modern meaning actually derives from this use, since they weren’t as large as a painting but still could fill a page. [This page](http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/sceptred_isle/page/32.shtml?question=32) shows it with a little bit more of the page around it, although at a truly tiny size. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/30 "2009-12-30T21:31:22Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > I like this part from the link: > > Unlikely? That was my favorite part too. ETA I should have previewed. This part: " it is unlikely that a similar practice would win the approbation of the British public today." ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/31 "2009-12-30T21:42:34Z")
Forgot to mention the actual size dimensions - per Wikipedia, [this manuscript](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froissart_of_Louis_of_Gruuthuse_(BnF_Fr_2643-6)) is ~44x33 cm in size; this one looks about half that size. Compare [this work](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ardents.jpg) by a contemporary of Liedet’s - do the faces look poorly done there? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/32 "2009-12-30T21:47:48Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > That does look like his cock, but it’s really just an illusion formed by the streak of blood down his thigh. You can see if you look closely that it’s not actually a long penis hanging down. Damn, you’re right. And I was mentally changing his name to “Huge Dispenser.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/33 "2009-12-30T22:06:07Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > Compare [this work](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ardents.jpg) by a contemporary of Liedet’s - do the faces look poorly done there? Some of them, a bit; others, not so much (e.g. the guy in the blue robe on the right). The human forms are still awkward and the perspective still shaky, ISTM (the characters in the foreground are too short; maybe they’re kids?). Anyway, still has that “look” sassyfras questioned, I think, though perhaps a bit of an upgrade. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/34 "2009-12-30T23:05:04Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > Compare [this work](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ardents.jpg) by a contemporary of Liedet’s - do the faces look poorly done there? That image, by the way, is a depiction of a horrific incident called the [Bal des Ardentes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_vi_of_france#The_Bal_des_Ardents) which happened to Charles VI of France and some of his friends. They had put on a masquerade party to celebrate someone’s wedding, which involved the king and several French nobles dressing up as “wild men.” As is written, they were dressed “in costumes of linen cloth sewn onto their bodies and soaked in resinous wax or pitch to hold a covering of frazzled hemp, so that they appeared shaggy & hairy from head to foot”. The king’s brother had the bright idea of approaching the costumed men with a lit torch “to discover the identity of the masqueraders.” He wound up setting them all on fire, and four of them burned to death. The king managed to survive - a woman threw a gown on him, putting out the flames. Man, the things people will do in the name of partying. ---
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/35 "2009-12-30T23:25:43Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > That image, by the way, is a depiction of a horrific incident called the [Bal des Ardentes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_vi_of_france#The_Bal_des_Ardents) which happened to Charles VI of France and some of his friends. They had put on a masquerade party to celebrate someone’s wedding, which involved the king and several French nobles dressing up as “wild men.” As is written, they were dressed “in costumes of linen cloth sewn onto their bodies and soaked in resinous wax or pitch to hold a covering of frazzled hemp, so that they appeared shaggy & hairy from head to foot”. The king’s brother had the bright idea of approaching the costumed men with a lit torch “to discover the identity of the masqueraders.” He wound up setting them all on fire, and four of them burned to death. The king managed to survive - a woman threw a gown on him, putting out the flames. > > Man, the things people will do in the name of partying. Terrific story. I’m telling that to everyone who says history is boring from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/36 "2009-12-30T23:44:44Z")
Anyone who says that “history is boring” is an idiot, or more likely, the victim of a school system which unfortunately does not teach history in an engaging way. It’s a shame that anyone would say history is boring, since technically everything that has ever happened is history. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989/37 "2009-12-31T17:00:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Hugh Despenser, 1st Lord Despenser I guess they were planning to use his head as a Pez Despenser. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-medieval-drawings-look-the-way-they-do/522989.md?page=1)