# Why do men get to legislate abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795 "2003-02-09T01:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/21 "2003-02-09T04:01:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > Of course! If the majority of women decided it would be best for society to give up thier right to abortion, it would be as fair as outlawing anything else in my OP examples. _Ahem_ Read once again my example: A Congress 52% women, 48% men, in strict accordance to the % of population Of the 48% men, 35% anti-abortion, 13% pro Of the 52% women, 17% anti-abortion, 35% pro Final tally, 52% votes anti-abortion, 35% from men, 17% from women. A “majority of women” was in chambers. But it was NOT the votes of a majority _within_ the women that carried the day. Still in favor of the example? Now, what **I** say: this is still (IMO) a _wrong_ decision; but it IS **procedurally** _legitimate_ because those 52% are the designated proxies of a majority of the electorate (and by extension, of women). But then, ANY 52% of Congress legally represent a nominal majority of the electorate _including women_. So WHOEVER makes up Congress, it is procedurally legitimate for them to legislate on any issue. Now, if you are arguing the metaphysical impossibility of it being “fair” for any male to make a decision about abortion, you bring the debate to an unsolvable standoff and we may as well all go home as we’ll get nowhere. … Oh, and about k2dave’s example, **yes** , “whites can vote for that” (notice he didn’t say they HAD…) ANYONE can vote for ANYTHING if they are in Congress, that’s precisely the root of what bothered you about the current situation! Whether the _courts_ let such a vote stand up, that’s a whole 'nother kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/22 "2003-02-09T04:23:23Z")
Geez, lately, almost every abortion thread has had me on **JThunder’s** side. And I’m militantly pro-choice. It’s enough to encourage me to give up my abortion-thread addiction 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/23 "2003-02-09T04:33:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > \*\*My premise is that with making LAWS, everyone’s sacrifice has the possibility to be equal, except with abortion. \*\* Can I see your paperwork for signing up with the [Selective Service?](http://www.sss.gov/) > [@](#): > > [Almost all male U.S. citizens, and male aliens living in the U.S., who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service.](http://www.sss.gov/FSwho.htm) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/24 "2003-02-09T04:55:35Z")
Ideally, our representatives represent our views in making laws. What difference does it make, philosophically, what sex they personally are? Are they not allowed to make laws about business if they’re not businessmen? Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/25 "2003-02-09T05:00:55Z")
Why are lawmakers from New York allowed to vote on usage and access of western land? Why are lawmakers in Nebraska allowed to vote on off-shore drilling? Why are lawmakers in North Dakota allowed to vote on regulations governing citrus crops? Why are female senators allowed to vote on health care legislation concerning prostate cancer? Why are the non-handicapped allowed to vote on legislation for the handicapped? Why does anyone take pizzabrat seriously? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/26 "2003-02-09T05:03:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > \*\* > God doesnt give rights to anyone the government does… \*\* Well, that’s not what the U.S. government says. The Declaration of Independence declares that the equality of mankind is [self-evident](http://www.mhhe.com/mayfieldpub/lawhead/chapter2/rationalism_and_human_rights.htm), and civilized society routinely speaks of _inalienable_ human rights. If there were no _fundamental_ human rights, then the blacks would have had no business demanding their freedom during Lincoln’s time. After all, they only “rights” they had would have been based on what the government said, and nothing more. If the government declared that they had no rights, and if government is the sole arbiter of those rights, then they would have no basis for protest. ---
**Author:** ![FireWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@FireWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FireWitch)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/27 "2003-02-09T05:31:04Z")
Holy crap… Pizza…Listen. No men, no babies, you hear? Case ya haven’t read the anatomy text in a while, Tab A, + Slot B = Part C. Takes two to tango, takes a pair to party, 1 plus 1 equals another one, get my drift? Now I am completely pro-choice, but we need to get honest here, everybody knows, and I mean EVERYBODY (ok, maybe not some people) knows where babies come from, we all know the chief cause of pregnancy…sex. It’s your role as the female of the species to have the babies, it’s not anyones fault, just the way it is, don’t like it, stop having sex, it really is that simple. The way I see it, it’s not my business, unless it’s my kid. Fact is, it’s not even the business of another woman, of you choose abortion, now is it? By the way, be glad men can’t carry kids, because not only would abortion be legal, there’d be more places to get one, than there would to get a $4.00 cup of coffee. Brat, America is a representative republic, where a few representing the many, decide for the many, using the views of a few. It’s the best we can do, and as other posters have so elloquently stated in general, why does anyone get to vote for anything? Because it’s the system we have, and one I’m happy to be a part of. Deal in peace… ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/28 "2003-02-09T05:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FireWitch \* > **By the way, be glad men can’t carry kids, because not only would abortion be legal, there’d be more places to get one, than there would to get a $4.00 cup of coffee.** I have to sincerely disagree with this. Society expects men to sacrifice their lives for the protection of others. “Women and children first.” If men carried the kids and aborted one, the penalty would be much tougher, just as the sentencing disparity is evidence across the board. ---
**Author:** ![FireWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@FireWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FireWitch)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/29 "2003-02-09T05:47:23Z")
Pucky, I can’t say I disagree with you on that point, but damn, that’s a funny bit though, doncha think? ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/30 "2003-02-09T05:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FireWitch \* > \*\*Pucky, I can’t say I disagree with you on that point, but damn, that’s a funny bit though, doncha think? \*\* You mean your post? Yes, I was laughing with the Tab A, + Slot B instructions on through. Well done. 🙂 (And jealous that I’d get my face slapped for talking like this.) ---
**Author:** ![Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b782af/32.png) [@Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermann_Cheruscan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/31 "2003-02-09T05:56:24Z")
If Men really, really, really got to legislate abortions, birth control and the like… They would declare that whatever was going on inside a womans body was her responsibility and hers alone. That would mean that men would no longer have to pay child support, since it is the female who decides if the baby within her body is born in the first place. Seems like women want to have it both ways… ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/32 "2003-02-09T06:00:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hermann Cheruscan \* > \*\*If Men really, really, really got to legislate abortions, birth control and the like… > > They would declare that whatever was going on inside a womans body was her responsibility and hers alone. > > That would mean that men would no longer have to pay child support, since it is the female who decides if the baby within her body is born in the first place. > > Seems like women want to have it both ways… \*\* Well said. I especially disagree with pizzabrat’s contention: > [@](#): > > No hypothetical man’s sacrifce can ever equal a woman’s sacrifice when restricting abortion. An unmarried woman would, in most jurisdictions, have the right to keep the child or give it up for adoption, and she could keep the child away from the father. An unmarried father would have nearly no rights, in most jurisdictions, and would probably have to go to court just to keep the child from being given to strangers. Meanwhile, the mother could keep the child away from him and then demand child support at college age. I know this generalities don’t fit every jurisdiction, but there is nothing like equality involved here. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/33 "2003-02-09T06:21:22Z")
Firewitch: > [@](#): > > Pizza…Listen. No men, no babies, you hear? Case ya haven’t read the anatomy text in a while, Tab A, + Slot B = Part C. Takes two to tango, takes a pair to party, 1 plus 1 equals another one, get my drift? > > Now I am completely pro-choice, but we need to get honest here, everybody knows, and I mean EVERYBODY (ok, maybe not some people) knows where babies come from, we all know the chief cause of pregnancy…sex. …what does this have to do with anything? > [@](#): > > It’s your role as the female of the species to have the babies, it’s not anyones fault, just the way it is, don’t like it, stop having sex, it really is that simple. Ah, now I get it. Your rant was based on the assumption that I’m some promiscuous woman who wants to dismiss the opinion of men after I go and get myself pregnant by one. Well, no, I’m not a woman and I doubt I’ll be getting anyone pregnant anytime soon. SenorBeef: > [@](#): > > Ideally, our representatives represent our views in making laws. What difference does it make, philosophically, what sex they personally are? Are they not allowed to make laws about business if they’re not businessmen? Etc. It doesn’t make a difference philosophically, it makes a difference physically. No man could ever get pregnant, so who are they to legislate pregnancy? Non businessmen can make laws about businesses because it’s possible for anyone to become a businessman. Pucky: > [@](#): > > ## Can I see your paperwork for signing up with the Selective Service? quote: > > ## Almost all male U.S. citizens, and male aliens living in the U.S., who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service. It’s possible for the populace to vote to require only females to register, if we wanted to, or to bar everyone from registering. It’s not possible for the populace to restict or allow men to have abortions. ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/34 "2003-02-09T06:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > \*\*It’s possible for the populace to vote to require only females to register, if we wanted to, or to bar everyone from registering. It’s not possible for the populace to restict or allow men to have abortions. \*\* I take that as a no, you haven’t registered with the Selective Service. You now will not be allowed any say in matters pertaining to national defense. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/35 "2003-02-09T06:38:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > If that’s the case, then Roe v. Wade should be revoked immediately. After all, how many women were on the Supreme Court when that decision was made? (HINT: Less than one.) I’d really like to see **pizzabrat’s** response to this one. Speaking about simply legislative issues, and not the moral/ethical issues surrounding the entire abortion debate, men have to have a say, because men are members of the Legislative, Judiciary, and Executive branches of our government. One thing to keep in mind, too, **pizzabrat** –women have been fighting for _equality_ for a very, very long time. Not dominance or superiority. _Equality_. That means, no discrimination. Women in the government branches cannot and should not disallow men from voting or speaking on an issue simply because they are men, any more than men should discriminate against the women simply because they are women. It goes against everything that my foremothers fought for when they picketed for the right to vote. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/36 "2003-02-09T06:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Ahem > Read once again my example: A Congress 52% women, 48% men, in strict accordance to the % of population > > Of the 48% men, 35% anti-abortion, 13% pro > Of the 52% women, 17% anti-abortion, 35% pro > > Final tally, 52% votes anti-abortion, 35% from men, 17% from women. A “majority of women” was in chambers. But it was NOT the votes of a majority within the women that carried the day. > > Still in favor of the example? Ah, okay. Nevermind, no. But the fair and noble thing would be for the male congressmen to forfiet thier votes. Pucky > [@](#): > > Well said. I especially disagree with pizzabrat’s contention: > > ## quote: > > ## No hypothetical man’s sacrifce can ever equal a woman’s sacrifice when restricting abortion. > > An unmarried woman would, in most jurisdictions, have the right to keep the child or give it up for adoption, and she could keep the child away from the father. An unmarried father would have nearly no rights, in most jurisdictions, and would probably have to go to court just to keep the child from being given to strangers. Meanwhile, the mother could keep the child away from him and then demand child support at college age. While I don’t see how that disproves my statement that a man doesn’t sacrifice what a woman sacrifices when restricting abortion, it’s completly possible for the populace to give the unmarried father all custody rights and the mother none, or to divide them between them equally. It’s not possible for Congress to allow or disallow a man to have an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/37 "2003-02-09T06:40:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > \*\*Only half of the population is affected by abortion laws, \*\* Sure men have no feelings about having kids or any attachment to the ones they have. They sure wouldn’t affect they guy socially or financially right? It couldn’t possibly be A VERY BIG DEAL to them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/38 "2003-02-09T06:42:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\* > > One thing to keep in mind, too, **pizzabrat** –women have been fighting for _equality_ for a very, very long time. Not dominance or superiority. _Equality_. That means, no discrimination. Women in the government branches cannot and should not disallow men from voting or speaking on an issue simply because they are men, any more than men should discriminate against the women simply because they are women. It goes against everything that my foremothers fought for when they picketed for the right to vote. \*\* Frankly, pizzabrat seems much, much more representative of the typical feminist. I’ll swallow your statement when I see women actually campaigning for equal rights for fathers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/39 "2003-02-09T06:49:23Z")
Pucky: > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by pizzabrat It’s possible for the populace to vote to require only females to register, if we wanted to, or to bar everyone from registering. It’s not possible for the populace to restict or allow men to have abortions. > > I take that as a no, you haven’t registered with the Selective Service. > > You now will not be allowed any say in matters pertaining to national defense. Sorry. Huh? Why did you take that as a no? You’re crazy. Why should anyone take YOU seriously? Persephone > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by JThunder If that’s the case, then Roe v. Wade should be revoked immediately. After all, how many women were on the Supreme Court when that decision was made? (HINT: Less than one.) > > I’d really like to see pizzabrat’s response to this one. I didn’t make the comment he responded to. That was BURNER’s. > [@](#): > > One thing to keep in mind, too, pizzabrat–women have been fighting for equality for a very, very long time. Not dominance or superiority. Equality. That means, no discrimination. Women in the government branches cannot and should not disallow men from voting or speaking on an issue simply because they are men, any more than men should discriminate against the women simply because they are women. It goes against everything that my foremothers fought for when they picketed for the right to vote. Yes, ideally, there would be no issue in which men and women weren’t in equal peril. But I hold the belief that you can’t legislate against reality, and reality dictates that only women can get pregnant. Nature trumps our national ideology of equality, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Pucky\_Schumer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@Pucky\_Schumer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pucky_Schumer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795/40 "2003-02-09T06:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > It’s not possible for Congress to allow or disallow a man to have an abortion. \*\* It is possible to allow a man to have an equal say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-men-get-to-legislate-abortion/153795.md?page=3)