# Why do modern casinos don't have easy places for people to sit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 12, 2022, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813 "2022-07-12T08:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/21 "2022-07-13T02:17:22Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I had no idea there are slot machine pros. I understand poker, and perhaps even blackjack, but slots? I assume it involves monitoring machines and targeting those that are “due”? But they are all supposed to be random at all times, right? OK … So here it goes. I’m not a gambler. I don’t give a shit about gambling. It’s not something I do myself. But… I have heard that the slots nearer to highly visible areas are set to go off at a slightly higher rate than others. So, with slots, as I understand it, there are payoff %ages, and they are audited to meet the state minimums and shit like that. Minimums are like, I dunno, 85-90% or something like that. And these are often published in papers. And these are adjustable by slots. You can set a slot to payout at, say, 101% if you want. And these are placed at areas where slotgoers can say “hey! look! I see somebody winning! Let’s play some slots!” True? False? A little bit of each? ETA: I know there is or was somebody here at the Dope who was deep in the auditing side of this, so they would be able to provide some input. Who that was, though, I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/22 "2022-07-13T02:22:30Z")
I didn’t know how “progressives” work, and I kind of assumed the rest, but thanks for nice summary of how they work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/23 "2022-07-13T02:34:58Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I had no idea there are slot machine pros. I understand poker, and perhaps even blackjack, but slots? At the casino I consulted at, there was one family that won big bux and even cars year after year. I had my suspicions , but that really wasn’t why I was there. And yes, as **Sam\_Stone** says, part of it was due to progressive slots, but I discovered that one woman who had worked in slots was a relative of that family- however, she had been fired a little while ago, and the Casino was all hush-hush about it. Not to mention Security hated my department. The boss in security was ex-police. I suspected they knew something but wouldn’t tell us. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/24 "2022-07-13T02:48:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > … > This has a number of implications: > > - Machines are never ‘due’, or ‘hot’. It’s not like you are guaranteed a jackpot every X spins and if it hasn’t come up it’s ‘due’. It’s all pure randomness. > - If you leave a slot machine and someone wins the jackpot on the next pull, that doesn’t mean you would have won if you had stayed for one more. If your pull was a microsecond earlier or later than the other’s you would have gotten a completely different result. **Understanding this would save a lot of players who won’t leave a machine, terrified of leaving when a jackpot could be waiting on the next pull.** > - If the reels stop just one symbol away from the jackpot, it doesn’t mean you were close to winning. What the reels do is irrelevant - they are just obeying a computer algorithm. Your result was set the instant the computer pulled the reel values from the lookup table. (Bolding mine). Excellent post. Thank you. IMO the bolded bit is key. The casinos depend a LOT on the public not figuring this out. The good news (for them) is human nature is wired to disbelieve this fact even if there’s no secrecy about it being a fact. The power of this “due” thinking, and especially the “next pull might win” thinking is what leads people who’ve vowed to spend $50 and go home to instead blow their whole paycheck at one sitting. And repeat the mistake 2 weeks hence. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/25 "2022-07-13T03:11:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I have heard that the slots nearer to highly visible areas are set to go off at a slightly higher rate than others. So, with slots, as I understand it, there are payoff %ages, and they are audited to meet the state minimums and shit like that. Minimums are like, I dunno, 85-90% or something like that. And these are often published in papers. And these are adjustable by slots. You can set a slot to payout at, say, 101% if you want. And these are placed at areas where slotgoers can say “hey! look! I see somebody winning! Let’s play some slots!” True? False? A little bit of each? There has been lots of speculation by gamblers that ‘loose’ slots are placed closer to doors or other places where they want to have passers-by see lots of winning. While this is possible, I doubt it. The difference in action between a slot machine paying 92% vs one paying 95% would not be noticeable by casual observers. But even if they are, there would not be any that pay over 100%. The only way to find a winning slot machine is to find one with a progressive jackpot that is sufficiently high. One exceprion is video poler, under some rules. While not a ‘slot machine’, they can be found in slot areas. Some of them will pay out slightly over 100% with perfect play, but those machines are never high limit. The best you can make out them is maybe $5-$10 hour. In general, games in the casino which requires no skill or knowledge have the worst payouts. Games like roulette, baccarat, the big six wheel, keno, and slots are basically ‘put your money down and hope’ games. The casino cannot offer a positive expectation on those. If a casino gives you a special display of past spins, or gives you a pad and pencil to track things, you can be guaranteed they are completely meaningless. They give you the illusion of smart decision making perhaps, but are a complete waste of time. Roulette and baccarat, for example. The games that have the best odds are the ones that require knowledge or skill to play well. The casino trusts in the terrible playing of most people for their profit, and the card counters they allow (low limit) are basically advertising loss leaders. If you try counting at high enough limits, they’ll give you the boot. And if you try to track cards with a pad and pencil like they encourage you to do in baccarat, they’ll kick you out and threaten you with a felony charge for bringing a physical aide to a gaming table. Because in blackjack it would actually help. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/26 "2022-07-13T03:43:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > There has been lots of speculation by gamblers that ‘loose’ slots are placed closer to doors or other places where they want to have passers-by see lots of winning. While this is possible, I doubt it. The difference in action between a slot machine paying 92% vs one paying 95% would not be noticeable by casual observers. This was always my feeling, but I don’t do casinos, don’t play slots, none of that. So good to hear my thoughts are in order. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/27 "2022-07-13T04:22:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Sports books also offer lounge areas, and you can watch sports there if that’s your thing. Good suggestion. My local race book has maybe two or three dozen slot machines, but there are plenty of places in front of the TVs showing racing–tables and chairs, seats at the bar–where people who choose to neither play slots or races to sit. And they often do, sometimes texting, sometimes not, but there is at least a place to sit without feeling obligated to gamble, and without preventing anybody from playing a slot game. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/28 "2022-07-13T04:30:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Keno pits make great relaxation areas. Buy a $1 tocket and relax. Keno is one of the worst games for odds, but takes a while to play so it’s a fairly cheap way to get out of the gambling grind and relax in a comfy space for a while. Dad liked to play keno in the restaurants. Once when there was a wind storm that sank a lot of boats (and resulted in gravel in dad’s JetSki’s intake), dad went to Laughlin (The Flamingo Hilton, I believe). He picked up a pamphlet that said How To Win $100,000 Playing Keno. He followed the instructions on his first game… and won $100,000. He stopped playing for the rest of the trip. Dad got a new JetSki, sis got a downpayment on a house, and I got helicopter money. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/29 "2022-07-13T04:59:52Z")
I think it was Keno in a casino in Montreal - some guy won a whole series of jackpots and then ended up in a lawsuit with the provincial gaming authority to get his winnings. Apparently there was a bug in the system, it would repeat the same sequence of numbers after reboot. Most casinos rarely turned the Keno system off, but apparently Montreal would reboot it every night. There was speculation some casino types were annoyed at him for winning the huge jackpot, because it killed a goose that had been laying small regular golden eggs for the few in the know. > **[CRAFTY QUEBEC KENO KING FINALLY GETS HIS WINNINGS](https://buffalonews.com/news/crafty-quebec-keno-king-finally-gets-his-winnings/article_72f060b6-2231-5ae2-a2c5-25492e49389d.html)** > > Loto-Quebec has finally paid the $450,000 won by keno-game buster Daniel Corriveau at its Montreal casino on April 10. But it wouldn’t pay the money until an investigation determined that ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/30 "2022-07-13T05:29:33Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Apparently, any modification made by a casino to a slot machine (and those machines are highly adjustable) requires prior regulatory approval, but the document isn’t clear on saying whether they will approve different payout schedules for different machines of the same make in the same casino. In Nevada, at least, 25 year ago, at least, yes, the same game can have different “holds” as the casinos call them, and most certainly will for different denominations, a quarter machine being tighter than a dollar machine being tighter than a $5 machine. The most popular slot game by far at the time was IGT’s _Red White and Blue_. The ones we had ranged from 15% to 8% hold, the money the club expected to retain. In my club all of the machines in the same bank had the same hold but who knows if all of them followed suit. And yes, the Gaming Commission had to be notified if the tables were changed. We put in a bank of new dollar machines with a _96% Returned!!!_ sign above them. After six months the chips were replaced with the more usual 8% hold (92% return) and the sign taken down. It was all arranged with Gaming before we started. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Or, superstitious gamblers who believe a slot machine is ‘due’ because it hasn’t paid out a jackpot for a while (or ‘hot’ because it did - go figure) might ask someone to sit and block their machine while they go to the bathroom or get food or whatever. If someone wanted to take a 10-minute pee-break we’d shut a machine off for them no matter how crowded it was. If it wasn’t crowded we’d let them take as long as 45-minutes to get a bite to eat. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If you leave a slot machine and someone wins the jackpot on the next pull, that doesn’t mean you would have won if you had stayed for one more. If your pull was a microsecond earlier or later than the other’s you would have gotten a completely different result. I don’t know why but in slot machines the game was determined one trial ahead. If you sit down at a machine, the results of your first game were determined by the guy who’d played the game before you. Likewise, you determined the outcome for the guy who follows when walk away. Poker machines the games were ‘current’ – determined when you drop your first coin, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/31 "2022-07-13T06:56:37Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > But for the past decade when I’ve gone to casinos legitimately half the people I see now seated at slot machines aren’t even playing, they’re just sitting down and texting on their phones for extended periods of time, usually sitting and blocking the one slot machine I want to play. This can’t be good for business if even at a busy casino most of the people aren’t actually playing but rather just being space fillers opposing people who actually want to play. This sounds almost like a reason for removing the seats by the slot machines - casinos don’t want people sitting, they want people playing, and bleeding money. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/32 "2022-07-13T14:17:30Z")
Resorts and the Claridge 1981-82. Thousands of people per day arrived by bus. Mostly seniors. When they got tired, there was nowhere to sit. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/33 "2022-07-13T14:28:32Z")
I knows they didn’t have lounges or anything like that but what I was questioning was the part about there being no chairs in front of slot machines. I mean, if you are certain that those casinos at that time expected customers to stand for the entire time they were in the casino playing slots , I’ll believe you - but I can’t help but think one of us is misunderstanding the other because I can’t imagine they attracted thousands of seniors a day to play slots while standing the entire six hours or so that they were at the casino if they were on a bus trip. . ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/34 "2022-07-13T14:30:24Z")
One reason to allow people to sit at the gaming chairs is that it gives the appearance of more people gambling. If you saw a bank of 10 seats and only one person was there, you might think it’s boring or not worthwhile. But if you see 8 of the 10 seats filled, you would think it’s the place to be and be more enticed to join in. If you look at the individuals you may see that most are just lounging around, but the initial appearance is that lots of people are in that area, and that must mean something good is happening. A similar example might be seeing a long line at a business. Even if you don’t know what the business is, you might feel like you need to join the line so that you don’t miss out. So seeing lots of people in an area of a casino may cause people to gravitate there and entice people to play. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/35 "2022-07-13T15:14:06Z")
My memory might be tricking me but remember, in those days there were more customers than you could shake a stick at. People waited in lines for everything. Customer service? Please. If you don’t like it, move on. There are three people waiting to take your place. The house could afford to be choosey. There was actually a dress code after 5:00 PM. Ah, the good old days. As more houses opened, competition increased and things loosened up There may have been seats here and there in front of slots but certainly not in front every one. They didn’t want tired day-trippers blocking machines that someone might want to play. On the rare occasion that I walk through a casino these days, I’m amazed by how much things have changed. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/36 "2022-07-13T15:28:59Z")
Regarding people “holding” seats in front of progressive slots with built up jackpots. Um, why just sit there? Why not play? Esp. if a stooge is paid to block the machine by Someone. Why doesn’t Someone just come over and play? ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/37 "2022-07-13T17:21:55Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Resorts and the Claridge 1981-82. Thousands of people per day arrived by bus. Mostly seniors. When they got tired, there was nowhere to sit. My older sister spent one winter in Tahoe, and she said if she walked through a casino, you’d see all these old people sleeping on the stairs. All times of day and night. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813/38 "2022-07-14T04:51:41Z")
I recall reading something about the local natives having a dispute with one of the Canadian provinces back in the day, claiming they had the right to install slot machines without the license or approval of the provincial lottery corp. Every so often the police would raid a reserve and cart off some slot machines; one article mentioned that some of them had been modified to pay out less than the mandatory minimum amount the province required. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-modern-casinos-dont-have-easy-places-for-people-to-sit/967813.md?page=1)