# Why do more males want to be female than vice versa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 3, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243 "2004-05-03T05:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/21 "2004-05-05T00:36:15Z")
Let me rephrase, now that I have cooled down. This is only the case in a small number of self-hating gays who are–one hopes–screened out well before the surgical procss takes place. ---
**Author:** ![emekthian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecae2f/32.png) [@emekthian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emekthian)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/22 "2004-05-05T02:22:40Z")
What male wouldn’t want to have his very own vagina and boobs, without having to put up with the hassle of a girlfriend or wife to have access to them? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/23 "2004-05-05T02:58:58Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > I doubt hormones are the only possible influence, because it seems then candidates for MtoF would have a greater tendency to be attracted to guys. (Or is there a correlation?) My WAG is that it is sometimes a self image thing. It’s always a self image thing, specifically ‘my self image is a person with breasts and a vagina’ > [@](#): > > 😃 Anyway, when a boy reaches puberty . . .if he has any self image issues he might fantasize about being a girl Every description I’ve ever read or heard from a transexual includes 'I knew as soon as I was old enough to know what the words boy and girl meant. Autogynephiliacs\*, self-hating gay men seeking to be transformed into straight women, and such make up only the most miniscule lunatic fringe of mtf transexuals. - I’ve seen no evidence of the existence of autogynephilia. However, considering how bizarre and varied human sexuality is, odds are that any fetish you can imagine is pursued by somebody somewhere. Somewhere out there is somebody who can only achieve sexual satisfaction by dressing as Arnold Ziff and porking a real doll made in the image of Eva Gabor. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/24 "2004-05-05T06:23:16Z")
**Doc** , if you meant Arnold Ziffle (the pig from _Green Acres_), I’m laughing my ass off. If you meant Arnold Ziff, I’m horribly puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/25 "2004-05-05T06:46:38Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > This is only the case in a small number of self-hating gays who are–one hopes–screened out well before the surgical procss takes place. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Autogynephiliacs\*, self-hating gay men seeking to be transformed into straight women, and such make up only the most miniscule lunatic fringe of mtf transexuals. What? Was my post that unclear? I’m specifically referring to _heterosexual_ boys, i.e. those who are _not attracted to other males._ Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/26 "2004-05-05T06:58:51Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > What? Was my post that unclear? I’m specifically referring to _heterosexual_ boys, i.e. those who are _not attracted to other males._ > > Sheesh. Er, if you’re talking about M2Fs who are not attracted to males then you’re most likely specifically referring to lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/27 "2004-05-05T11:14:46Z")
The current wisdom is that the MTF and FTM populations are about equal in size. People just pay far less attention to FTMs, and as others have mentioned, the surgical options are more expensive and rarely yield good results. **DocCathode** , I didn’t know I was transsexual until I was 22. Not all of us realize it when we’re kids. Doesn’t make us any less transsexual. **cityboy916** , I don’t know where you’re going with this business about lesbian MTFs, but I have a feeling it doesn’t belong in General Questions. I think we should count this one asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![JimMacMillan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7bcc69/32.png) [@JimMacMillan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimMacMillan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/28 "2004-05-05T15:26:17Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Pretty much, though the research is scanty and poorly funded. Studies seem to show it’s caused by prenatal exposure to disruptive hormones at about the time the hypothalamus is forming (about the 7th week of pregnancy). Transexualism occurs in all countries, cultures, classes, races, so it is pretty certainly a phisiological, rather than psychological, disorder. Although I see the logic in that, my observation of studies of identical twins would indicate otherwise. Are there any thoughts as to sexual predilections being steered by childhood influenza? Say something similar to type 1 diabetes. Both parents have to contribute the gene that causes diabetes but it takes a viral infection to trigger the disease. What if something similar was happening to a child during the time that his or her synaptic functions are still forming? That would explain why identical twins don’t always share the same sexual orientation. Or could be simply be that disruptive hormones only have an effect one fetus and not the other? Jim Mac Millan ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/29 "2004-05-05T15:34:10Z")
> [@JimMacMillan](#): > > Although I see the logic in that, my observation of studies of identical twins would indicate otherwise. I’m not aware of any twin studies involving transsexuality (or, for that matter, any transsexuals who are identical twins; apparently a research group in 1996 was attempting to locate sufficient transsexual twins to do a twin study but was apparently unable to do so). Please never confuse transsexuality with homosexuality; the two are not related and are, in fact, orthogonal to one another. A study of one provides no data that has any application at all to the other. > [@JimMacMillan](#): > > Or could be simply be that disruptive hormones only have an effect one fetus and not the other? This seems more likely to me. It’s my opinion (based on personal and anecdotal experience) that gender identity is generally far less subject to environmental conditioning than sexual preference. **All** the scientific evidence I’ve ever read stands on the side that gender identity is inborn. If there’s any credible evidence in support of gender being mutable post-partum, I’ve never seen it. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/30 "2004-05-05T15:43:59Z")
Ok, an update. I found an [anecdotal account](http://www.thomhartmann.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000081) of a discordant identical twin pair in which one twin was transsexual. (Her ex-wife married her twin after they broke up, apparently). I also found another plea for transsexual twins for a 2002 study, and one study that examined four twin pairs (one of the four pairs was concordant). A later [survey of reported cases](http://www.mygenes.co.nz/stats.html) (not a study) found seven out of seventeen pairs to be concordant. These numbers are way too small to prove anything. All they prove is that genetics are not conclusively determinative. But we’ve long suspected that transsexuality is more likely to be caused by a glitch during fetal brain development anyway, and that genetics at most create a tendency. (For which I am quite glad: I have three children, and I’d hate to think that I’d passed on this truly horrific condition to them.) ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/31 "2004-05-05T17:59:27Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > **cityboy916** , I don’t know where you’re going with this business about lesbian MTFs, but I have a feeling it doesn’t belong in General Questions. Right. It was wrong of me to imply what my post implied, and I apologize. Consider the statement retracted. I am slightly less ignorant now than when I wrote it. However, my every attempt to fight my ignorance on this subject has led nowhere. If I’ve said anything offensive, let me know, even if it means taking it to the Pit. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/32 "2004-05-07T16:19:27Z")
**CrazyCatLady** Yes, I meant Ziffle. **KellyM** I sit corrected. Might I add, you are the first person I’ve ever seen use the word orthogonal other than to explain a game. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243/33 "2004-05-07T18:18:07Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Do you have a cite? AFAIK most neovaginas are capable of sexual sensation and orgasm. OTTOMH if , rather than the usual penile inversion, a length of colon is transplanted, the neovagina is self-lubricating as well. Phalloplasties using skin from the arm and where the nerve(s) for erotic feelings are connected from the former clit now buried inside to nerves on the new penis are most of the time capable of orgasm. I have no cite though, I can only re-tell what the guys who have it done tell about it in online groups for ftm trans surgeries. The look of the “stuff” is improving too. The belgium team of Ghand is usually seen as the best in the world for phalloplasties. (Nowadays the cost is around 30 000euros for phallo/testicles implants and erection device, for that team) The other kind of bottom surgery for ftms, where the former clit which has grown from testosterone use is free up, forming some kind of micropenis, usually retains sexual sensation and orgasms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-more-males-want-to-be-female-than-vice-versa/243243.md?page=1)