# Why do Muslims venerate the Koran (as a physical object)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155 "2005-05-31T01:07:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/21 "2005-05-31T13:29:40Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > Treating an object, any object, like this is called idolatry and it is not something to be valued or, in extreme cases, even respected. It is something to be discouraged as it goes hand in hand with intolerence, ignorance and a simple excuse for violence. I believe the word you’re looking for is “veneration.” While its value is debatable, it does exist, unlike idolatry. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/22 "2005-05-31T14:27:21Z")
> [@Only Mostly Dead](#): > > I can never decide from one instance to the next. I try to be internally consistent, but have used Qu’ran, Qur’an, Koran, Kuran, and have seen others (including Paul’s in this thread). It’s a very imperfect English attempt at a phoenetically coherent printing of an Islamic word, and as long as it’s recognizable, I don’t worry much. There is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the sequence of phonemes in the original Arabic. It doesn’t have a mysteriously shifting order of phonemes. If you look at it and look away, then look again, the sequence will not have changed. It’s exactly the same word every time. The mark that looks like an apostrophe ( **’** ) is not just a decoration randomly strewn through Arabic words. It stands for a definite phoneme called _hamzah_, the glottal stop. It can only come after the r in Qur’an, not before, because that’s the only way to make this word. Fighting ignorance here involves dispelling the vague notion that since Arabic isn’t written in the Roman alphabet, it therefore has indefinite, uncertain spelling. That’s false. You can map the Arabic orthography to Roman with a one-to-one symbol correspondence. From the standpoint of information science, if American intelligence is ever going to track terrorists, they d\*mn well better get used to standardized Arabic romanization, or they will keep letting Omar Abel Rahmans into the country. He was on a watch list for not getting a visa. Because of the usual sloppy Arabic spelling, the US embassy in Khartoum gave him a visa. And the excuse is, Well, it’s just Arabic, it can be spelled any which way, who cares, dood. No. Not any more. In 2002, by act of Congress, the USA now has a standardized Arabic romanization to prevent this sort of snafu from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/23 "2005-05-31T14:50:42Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > I believe the word you’re looking for is “veneration.” While its value is debatable, it does exist, unlike idolatry. Idolatry doesn’t exist? I know we’re not in GD, but: cite? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/24 "2005-05-31T14:55:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Fighting ignorance here involves dispelling the vague notion that since Arabic isn’t written in the Roman alphabet, it therefore has indefinite, uncertain spelling. That’s false. You can map the Arabic orthography to Roman with a one-to-one symbol correspondence. Thank you for this. We do have to take care to note the dialectal differences present in Modern Arabic, however. That complicates a potential one-to-one Roman/Arabic symbolic correspondence that can take all Arabic dialects into account. But if a standard can be agreed upon (maybe we can call it “al-Jazeera”-speak), then it most certainly can be mapped reliably to Roman letters. If I may make a slight hijack – how it the word “Qur’an” pronounced among the different Arab communities in various countries? I know that the _q_ represents a uvular stop in Classical Arabic. I also know that this sound has transformed to a velar stop (English _k_) in many versions of Arabic (generally in North Africa, IIRC). I am familiar with the hamza ( ’ ). I do not know whether or not some Arabic dialects suppress the hamza in certain phonetic environments (e.g. between a consonant and a vowel). Finally, the question of _u_ versus _o_. As I understand it, Classical Arabic core vowels (present in short and long forms) are expressed in the International Phonetic Alphabet as /a/, /i/, /u/ (not counting diphthongs). There is no /o/ in Classical Arabic. IPA /o/ is pronounced with a lower tongue position than /u/ (similarly with /e/ being lower than /i/). Now then: in some Arabic dialects (Lebanese for one, IIRC) vowels like /o/ are part of the vocalic inventory alongside the Classical Arabic vowels. So where is “Qur’an” pronounced “Koran”? What other permutations are out there? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/25 "2005-05-31T15:34:08Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > Idolatry doesn’t exist? > > I know we’re not in GD, but: cite? My poor English is my cite!!! My sentence is structured poorly. “Which” refers to “its,” which refers to the value of veneration. If you need me, I’ll be in the corner, beating myself in the head with my copy of “Eats Shoots and Leaves.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/26 "2005-05-31T15:53:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! > > You made that up, right? Thinking it funny? Why should it be made up? In Hindu culture, _any_ written work, regardless of its subject, is considered sacred, and if you drop it on the floor or let any part of your feet touch it, you do _pronam_, by touching it then touching your forehead – essentially a kind of sign of respect that incorporates a prayer or recognition of divinity. I don’t find it unbelievable that Muslims might kiss a Koran if one is dropped. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/27 "2005-05-31T16:04:06Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Thank you for this. We do have to take care to note the dialectal differences present in Modern Arabic, however. Not to mention that “Koran” is a perfectly appropriate spelling. It transcribes the word as spoken in Hindi-Urdu, Bengali, and other South Asian languages. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/28 "2005-05-31T19:39:03Z")
Back in Catholic school, I was taught that the sacred texts of other faiths are just that – sacred texts – and that one should treat them with the proper dignity. Of course, if one is not aware of the proper handling, one might, perhaps, be excused should one fail to observe the intricacies of etiquette as applied to particular texts. Rules certainly vary from one faith to the next. In high school religion and even in college theology courses we underlined and highlighted in our bibles and took notes in the margins without thinking of such as mistreatment. Had I taken classes on Islamic theology I might very well have done the same with regards to the Koran (unless instructed otherwise, of course). Had I done so, I would hope that devout Muslims would consider these to be the actions of an ignorant but well-meaning unbeliever rather than an unpardonable act of blasphemy. On the other hand, as I understand it, the _informed_ and _willful_ mishandling of a sacred text from another faith should always be regarded as a sinful action. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/29 "2005-06-01T02:12:26Z")
**Bordelond** , I was talking about the standard written form of Arabic. Literary Arabic. I was not talking about colloquial Arabic pronunciation. The dialects are not written (well, they are a little bit, in certain limited settings like theatrical dialogue and cartoon balloons). You won’t find them coming up in written documents of international diplomacy, law, religion, technology, or for that matter, terrorism. However, Arabic internet chat has now worked out its own loose and shifting conventions for romanized Arabic. The standardized romanization which I mentioned was mandated by Congress applies only to the written language. It’s a way of ensuring that you can bring together all the data you need to by cross-referencing the variant forms to the standardized form in a database. I’m a librarian by training, and in library/information science we do this with names al the time, to make sure we identify the right person no matter how their name might be found. For example, do you shelve Mark Twain’s books under T for Twain or under C for Clemens (his real name)? The library science answer is to pick one and use it all the time, and cross-reference the other one to it. This way you don’t lose any information. So the answer to your question about the vowel /o/ is that it isn’t relevant to the situation I was talking about. We transliterate Arabic based on the invariable written form, that’s the concept. The pronunciation can vary from one country to another, but the standard romanization is a one-to-one symbol mapping from one alphabet to another. Trans_ **liter** _ation, see, it comes from the Latin word for letter. It deals with letters of the alphabet, not phonetic sounds. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/30 "2005-06-01T03:07:02Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > IAll of the above explanations have merit, but basically the problem is that Islam is only about 1300 years old and hasn’t had a reformation yet. Actually, Islam has gone through several changes and schisms that might be characterized as “reformations.” ( **Tamerlane** could provide us with rich details, I’m sure.) In any case, the essence of the Protestant Reformation was the rejection of the authority of the Roman Catholic hierarchy and its replacement with the Scripture as the ultimate authority on matters of doctrine. Since there is no generally recognized Islamic authority analogous to the papacy (the old Baghdad Caliphate having been extinct since 1258, and no one has even claimed the title of caliph since the Ottoman Sultanate was abolished in 1924), one might say that all of Islam now exists in a post-Reformation state, with all Muslims free to refer directly to the Koran (Quran, whatever) for their inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/31 "2005-06-01T03:10:17Z")
> [@Eggerhaus](#): > > I grew up in a home where I was taught that if I dropped a book I should pick it up and kiss it. Words, thoughts, images and ideas are important; books contain knowledge and ideas that were precious to their authors and we should respect them. Part of me wants to lol at that. But as a librarian, another part of me wants that attitude spread as widely as possible. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/32 "2005-06-01T05:15:50Z")
The veneration for the Qur’an has gone so far that some interpret Islamic law that you mustn’t even touch or handle the Qur’an unless you’re in the state of ritual ablution. This is based on interpretation of verse 56:79 where the Qur’an describes itself: _Lâ yamassuhu illâ al-mutahharûn_ (None touches it except the purified). Some interpret that esoterically to mean that impure beings, i.e. demons, cannot “touch” or get access to the meaning of the Qur’an because their evil nature blocks them from understanding it. The literalist interpretation says people shouldn’t put their hands on it unless they’re in the state of ritual purity. Not everyone agrees with this. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/33 "2005-06-01T06:14:53Z")
Moving to GD. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/34 "2005-06-01T12:45:37Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > (Some people here will not take their wallets into the bathroom with them. Our banknotes have Q’ranic verses on them.) Wow. Now **that** is dedication to one’s religion. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/35 "2005-06-01T13:35:04Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Wow. Now **that** is dedication to one’s religion. Assuming for a minute that you’re not just kidding – why should it seem more extreme than, say, keeping kosher, which can actually cause you a lot more inconvenience? I assume most office workers have places they can secure their valuables when going to the bathroom. I don’t see men retrieving their cheque books or women taking their purses to go to the office bathroom. Besides, in many places around the world, many people make it a point never to move their bowels away from home. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/36 "2005-06-01T14:43:51Z")
I see some christian bible lovers just as reverant about the bible as muslims seem about the Quran. IMHO its idolatry in a way. Its the love of that physical object as being of divine origin. Its tiresome to hear these people blabbing about Jesus and the Bible and rarely mentioning God at all. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/37 "2005-06-01T15:02:32Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > I see some christian bible lovers just as reverant about the bible as muslims seem about the Quran. IMHO its idolatry in a way. Its the love of that physical object as being of divine origin. We do not treat the physical object as being of divine origin. We believe that the _words_ contained in the Koran are divine – literally transmitted from Allah, through his messenger Gabriel to Muhammad, who was charged with spreading the word. This is the reason why we treat the Koran with the respect that we do – because those pages contain the _direct_ word of Allah. We do not worship it, or treat it with blind reverence, hence I would not term it idolatry We just treat it with respect, the same way that the Jews treat their holy books with respect. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/38 "2005-06-01T15:04:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > In 2002, by act of Congress, the USA now has a standardized Arabic romanization to prevent this sort of snafu from happening. OK, then, how **do** you officially spell Muammar Gaddafi/Khadafy/Qadhafi/Duckbreath’s name? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/39 "2005-06-01T15:53:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Besides, in many places around the world, many people make it a point never to move their bowels away from home. Are IBS rates lower in other coutries than the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155/40 "2005-06-01T16:40:02Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > What about the folks who vandalized [this work of art,](http://www.renewal.org.au/artcrime/pages/serrano.html) then? That wasn’t vandalism. That was kinetic art. Hey, you’re not against freedom of expression, are you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-muslims-venerate-the-koran-as-a-physical-object/306155.md?page=3)