# Why do Northern Californians get upset about "the 405"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 28, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308 "2017-07-28T05:40:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/1 "2017-07-28T05:40:45Z")
Look, if you have ever been in the Golden Sate, you would know that in general, SoCalers say “take \*THE \*405…” while in general NoCals would say “Take 880…”. However the line is quite fuzzy. Fairly often a Norcal will say “take the 101…” . More common on the 101 freeway, and never emphasized like SoCalers do. Still, it’s there. But mention this to a Norcal and they get livid, as if you are accusing them of goat fucking or something. Mention to a SoCal that they say “_The_ 101” and they just shrug. Or if they dont say “the”. No big deal to a Los Angelino. I mean, it’s a small difference and of course there’s not wall or dividing line\* between North and South and people move and travel back and forth all the time. I lived in both sections, mostly in the North. But even when I has a Norcal guy recorded as saying “the 101” he got angry and denied it. A shibboleth? - and no one can agree on where the line is between North and South anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/2 "2017-07-28T05:46:28Z")
Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/3 "2017-07-28T06:07:36Z")
I’ve heard Angelenos defend the correctness of using “the” in highway designations, including on this very board. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/4 "2017-07-28T06:21:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve heard Angelenos defend the correctness of using “the” in highway designations, including on this very board. Ok, sure, good point. But do they get angry and upset about it? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/5 "2017-07-28T07:07:54Z")
It’s a stupid “dispute,” and like all of these “disputes” between north and south, it’s almost entirely in the heads of the people of the north. I’ve lived in both places, too, and can attest to that. And it’s not as cut and dried as people say. In Southern California people do use the definite article more, but that’s because they don’t use terms such as _Highway_ and _Interstate_, which restricts usage of the definite article, and which is comparatively more common in the north. What’s happening is that the SF Bay Area just has fewer major freeways, so there are a handful that are much more salient in public discourse, and–it’s true–those are pretty much always referred to without the definite article. In Southern California, people are much more likely to be intimately familiar with a broader array of freeways, and are dropping the term _freeway_ and using numbers as a name. People in the Bay Area are more like to use the full names (with the few they have)–hence _ **the** Nimitz Freeway_, _ **the** McArthur Freeway_, and here they _ **DO** _ use the definite article. Furthermore, people in Southern California actually _ **DO** _ drop the the definite article quite often, when referring to a freeway that they rarely use or are unfamiliar with. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/6 "2017-07-28T07:15:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I mean, it’s a small difference and of course _there’s not wall or dividing line between North and South_\* and people move and travel back and forth all the time. > > […] > > - and **no one can agree on where the line is between North and South anyway.** Oh yes there is, and [this is where](http://georgerothert.com/tag/northern-california/). Center divider in the middle of State Route 99, a few miles north of Fresno, is the dividing line between southern and northern California. At this point, there are two adjacent trees planted there: A palm tree (marking Southern California) and some kind of pine for fir tree (marking Northern California). > [@](#): > > There never really was any definitive identifier informing a motorist when crossing the unofficial border between northern and southern California. As you travel the highway, keep an eye out for the pine tree and palm tree adjacent to each other in the median between northbound and southbound lanes. It’s a few miles north of Fresno, at about milepost 150. The fir represents the northern sector of the state; the palm tells you are in southern California. Your GPS won’t tell you this. This is supposed to symbolically represent the geographic center of the state. Actually, AIUI, that geographic center is many miles to the east of this point, up in the Sierras somewhere. But the marker on the highway (the two trees) is placed at the corresponding latitude. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/7 "2017-07-28T14:27:51Z")
Good to see a hangup about “the” which is almost as dumb as Ohio State’s insistence on being referred to as “The” Ohio State University. Ohio University was founded first. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/8 "2017-07-28T14:36:13Z")
RE: the “center” of California– Huell Howser(of course!) did a program all about finding the center of California: [California’s Gold #608](https://blogs.chapman.edu/huell-howser-archives/1995/12/10/center-of-california-californias-gold-608/) ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/9 "2017-07-28T15:12:53Z")
Don’t bring any of that “the” crap when talking about freeways to Washington. A few years ago a commercial for a local company referred the freeway exit to take as exit 142 of the 5 freeway. The company was blasted by the locals and the media. They claimed it was the Los Angeles based advertising company they hired. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/10 "2017-07-28T15:26:10Z")
IMO, it’s a way for Bay Area folks to try and feel superior to SoCal folks. It’s ridiculous, but the OP is right, they sure do get testy about it. > [@guizot](#): > > What’s happening is that the SF Bay Area just has fewer major freeways, so there are a handful that are much more salient in public discourse, and–it’s true–those are pretty much always referred to without the definite article. In Southern California, people are much more likely to be intimately familiar with a broader array of freeways, and are dropping the term _freeway_ and using numbers as a name. People in the Bay Area are more like to use the full names (with the few they have)–\*\*hence _ **the** Nimitz Freeway_, _ **the** McArthur Freeway_, and here they _ **DO** _ \*\*use the definite article. How about the Bloody Bayshore? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/11 "2017-07-28T15:32:45Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > IMO, it’s a way for Bay Area folks to try and feel superior to SoCal folks. ISTM that people in NorCal spend a lot of time being offended by people in SoCal. When I was in my native Southern California, nobody paid any attention to NorCal at all. And **racer72** : I take the 5 to Seattle. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/12 "2017-07-28T15:33:29Z")
Meh. It’s just another thing NorCalians are wrong about, like burritos, baseball teams and so many others. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/13 "2017-07-28T15:35:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ISTM that people in NorCal spend a lot of time being offended by people in SoCal. When I was in my native Southern California, nobody paid any attention to NorCal at all. > > And **racer72** : I take the 5 to Seattle. 😛 This. When I moved there in the late 80s, I couldn’t believe how much hate there was for the Dodgers. In LA, we never even talked about the Giants. In the Bay Area, it’s their biggest rivalry. Don’t even ask me about take out containers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/14 "2017-07-28T15:37:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > NorCalians _Star Trek_ aliens? Are the related to the Norcons (from Norco)? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/15 "2017-07-28T15:47:24Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > Don’t bring any of that “the” crap when talking about freeways to Washington. A few years ago a commercial for a local company referred the freeway exit to take as exit 142 of the 5 freeway. The company was blasted by the locals and the media. They claimed it was the Los Angeles based advertising company they hired. It doesn’t fly in Washington, D.C. either, but you wouldn’t know it from watching TV shows. Apparently it never occurs to L.A. based scriptwriters that not everyone in the nation shares their peculiar speech. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/16 "2017-07-28T16:26:44Z")
Huh. So I guess my is in for a surprise if she does end up moving to the Bay Area like she plans, as we Ontarians talk about “the 401” all the time. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/17 "2017-07-28T16:31:41Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > It doesn’t fly in Washington, D.C. either, but you wouldn’t know it from watching TV shows. Apparently it never occurs to L.A. based scriptwriters that not everyone in the nation shares their peculiar speech. Yes! I don’t care what people in CA (north or south) do, but if the character is from the northeast, and the action is in the northeast, it’s not “The 95”! I wouldn’t even say “Interstate 95” as they have them do sometimes, but that’s less egregious than “The 95”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/18 "2017-07-28T16:40:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **guizot** : > > And it’s not as cut and dried as people say. In Southern California people do use the definite article more, but that’s because they don’t use terms such as Highway and Interstate, which restricts usage of the definite article, and which is comparatively more common in the north. Eh, in the Cleveland area we don’t usually use those terms, either, and we still don’t need definite articles. We’ll say things like “Take 90 to the Columbia exit”, or “71 south to 480”. We do have “the Shoreway”, but for much of its length that doesn’t even have an interstate number. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Jackmannii** : > > Good to see a hangup about “the” which is almost as dumb as Ohio State’s insistence on being referred to as “The” Ohio State University. I think that that’s because the rest of the schools in our university system are all called “\_\_\_\_\_ State University”. So, for instance, Kent State University is an Ohio state university, as is Bowling Green State University or Cleveland State University. But the one in Columbus is _the_ Ohio State University. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/19 "2017-07-28T16:46:06Z")
Interestingly, this sort of came up on Jeopardy yesterday. Alex was reading the answer: > [@Alex Trebek](#): > > The McClure Tunnel in Santa Monica marks the western terminus of the 10 freeway, which transitions to this highway, the PCH. And he read “the 10 freeway” as “the number 10 freeway”. Like saying “the number 10 train”, or something. I know he’s from Canada, but he must have lived in LA forlikeever. No one takes “the number 405 freeway”. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/20 "2017-07-28T17:03:24Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Interestingly, this sort of came up on Jeopardy yesterday. Alex was reading the answer: > > And he read “the 10 freeway” as “the number 10 freeway”. Like saying “the number 10 train”, or something. I know he’s from Canada, but he must have lived in LA forlikeever. No one takes “the number 405 freeway”. Ironically, I don’t think anyone in L.A. would use the article for PCH (\*_the PCH_). But that speaks to what I was getting at above. These usages evolve from the ellipsis of the terms _freeway_ and _highway_ in Southern and Northern CA respectively. S.CAL: _Take the five freeway_ =\> _Take the five_ . . : N CAL: _Take highway eight-eighty_ =\> _Take . . . eight-eighty_. By the same token, people in Southern California drop the title _Interstate_. No one in in L.A would say, \*“_Take the Interstate five_.” Hence: S.CAL: _Take interstate fifteen to escondido_ =\> _Take fifteen to escondido_. As I said, in Southern California people do in fact drop the article when talking about less familiar roads. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308.md?page=2)