# Why do Northern Californians get upset about "the 405"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 28, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308 "2017-07-28T05:40:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/81 "2017-07-31T19:57:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Maybe they’re lashing out, because they know they’re really in Central California. 😛 Ooooooooh Daaaaaaamn! Get some aloe for that burn!!! :eek::eek::D:cool: Here’s my take on it: Freeways are much more important down south than up north. We have more of them, and we rely on them more often. We both need them and hate them, but they are a crucial part of our lives. Therefore, we treat them with both respect and familiarity. If you look at it, the full official name would be, for example, “The 405 freeway”. Consider that as mapping to “Dr. Roberta Jones.” If you have been Dr. Jones’ patient for a long time and are comfortable with her, you might call her “Dr. Roberta”. So it is with Southern Californians and their freeways - we call them by both their honorific (because we respect them and fear their wrath) and their first name (because we are on a more intimate basis with them). Thus, “The 405.” Northerners, though, don’t have the same respect-and-fear relationship with the freeways that we do, so they just use the freeway’s “first name” - like calling Dr. Jones “Roberta”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/82 "2017-07-31T20:58:50Z")
I’ve lived in both Southern and Northern California. IMO this is just a shibboleth used by northerners to tell when they they are talking with a southerner. As for why they think it’s important, it goes to the heart of native Northern Californians that they are NOT from Southern California. Sometimes I include the “the” just to mess with people; I’ve been in the Bay Area for 33 years now. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/83 "2017-07-31T21:15:21Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Ooooooooh Daaaaaaamn! Get some aloe for that burn!!! :eek::eek::D:cool: _LOL_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/84 "2017-07-31T21:18:25Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I’ve lived in both Southern and Northern California. IMO this is just a shibboleth used by northerners to tell when they they are talking with a southerner. > > As for why they think it’s important, it goes to the heart of native Northern Californians that they are NOT from Southern California. Sometimes I include the “the” just to mess with people; I’ve been in the Bay Area for 33 years now. So, you’re a SoCal transplant to the North. Not uncommon. No self-respecting NorCaler would move to SoCal. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/85 "2017-07-31T21:40:38Z")
Calling SF “The City” is cute and quaint (Awww! They act as though there’s only one city!), but we shouldn’t really talk down here, since we have “The Valley” despite there being two major valleys\* and several minor ones\*\*, all within the general LA area. \*San Fernando & San Gabriel \*\* [Category:Valleys of Los Angeles County, California - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Valleys_of_Los_Angeles_County,_California) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/86 "2017-07-31T22:27:11Z")
With the Warriors in ascendance, you also have folks wearing paraphernalia that has “The City” on it. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/87 "2017-08-16T16:28:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where is “Frisco”? Never heard of it. > > I’ve lived near quite a few cities, and have never known one where people did NOT refer to it as “The City”. When folks here say they are going to “The City”, I usually ask them where they are going in San Jose, but only to mess with them bit. Of course they mean San Francisco. But aren’t San Franciscans (or Bay Area residents) unusual in that they do this when they are hundreds or thousands of miles away from home? So if they’re in L.A. or Denver or perhaps even New York, the City to them means SF? I realize that not everyone does it, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/88 "2017-08-16T16:35:55Z")
Although I’ve been living in North County for three years, I haven’t managed to pick up on what the most common usage is in the San Diego area. One reason is that through most of the region, in contrast to L.A., we have only one interstate, I-5. State and county routes tend to be more important here, but even these usually have regular names like ordinary roads. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/89 "2017-08-16T16:46:08Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > One reason is that through most of the region, in contrast to L.A., we have only one interstate, I-5. What about the 15? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/90 "2017-08-16T16:54:48Z")
And the I-8. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/91 "2017-08-16T17:07:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wonder if that’s because it’s such a sprawl that referring to it as “The City” doesn’t tell you much about where you are talking about. SF, for example, is pretty compact. This probably correct, in my opinion. Not only is L.A. less compact, but there are also many districts which have continued to use their old pre-annexation names, like in most of the San Fernando Valley. Chatsworth, Van Nuys, Studio City, etc., all do this and if you referred to these areas or addressed mail as going to “Los Angeles” it would only confuse people. South of Mulholland this is less common and aside from legally independent enclaves just about everything is considered L.A., but exceptions exist even there. The famous “90210” zip code actually belongs mostly to a section of Los Angeles known as Beverly Hills Post Office. When ZIP codes were introduced in the early 1960s, USPS assigned it to the main post office in Beverly Hills so everyone began writing their addresses as Beverly Hills rather than L.A. Usually if an address has a 900 zip code it’s referred to and should be addressed as being in Los Angeles, though again Hollywood fits this criterion but usually continues to be known as Hollywood. Palms is a similar case, but to a lesser extent. It was considered a minor triumph for community identity when they successfully agitated for the local metro station to be named simply “Palms” rather than “Palms Boulevard”. So indeed, saying “The City” in reference to L.A. would be quite ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/92 "2017-08-16T17:26:08Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > \*f you referred to these areas or addressed mail as going to “Los Angeles” it would only confuse people. When I moved to L.A., my apartment was on Clarington at Palms, which is in the City of Los Angeles. My mom sent me a card/letter, and it took a long time to arrive from San Diego. Though the ZIP code was correct, she’d used Culver City as the city name. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/93 "2017-08-16T17:40:14Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > But aren’t San Franciscans (or Bay Area residents) unusual in that they do this when they are hundreds or thousands of miles away from home? So if they’re in L.A. or Denver or perhaps even New York, the City to them means SF? I realize that not everyone does it, of course. Two of my SF friends moved to NYC, and they were cured of calling that small village “The City” very quickly. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/94 "2017-08-16T18:54:26Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > But aren’t San Franciscans (or Bay Area residents) unusual in that they do this when they are hundreds or thousands of miles away from home? So if they’re in L.A. or Denver or perhaps even New York, the City to them means SF? I realize that not everyone does it, of course. Could be, I suppose. But I’ve not encountered that. I live about 50 miles south of SF, and although I think of it as “the city”, that would only be in the context of it being the nearest big city (San Jose, though larger, is not a “big city”; it’s a “big suburb with a small downtown area”). ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/95 "2017-08-16T19:01:44Z")
Here in Texas the highways are eye-35, eye-20, eye-10, unless it’s a three digit number, in which case the ‘eye’ is dropped. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/96 "2017-08-16T21:59:18Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > In some areas of the country references to “the X” or just “X” would be insanely confusing. Here in GA there are 3 major interstate highways - I-20, I-75 and I-85. There are also 3 major state highways numbered 20, 75 and 85. Highway 20 crosses each of the interstate highways and one of the major state highways. Saying take 20 west to 85 south is perfectly logical, but depending on how it is parsed would put one miles apart on the map. That’s just one example of many. > > 'Round here we always include “highway”, “Interstate” or “I” in front of the number. Well, except for when we say “the downtown connector” which is where I-75 and I-85 combine while going through downtown Atlanta. Ahem. _Three_ major interstates? Here in Atlanta we have three major interstates that are known exclusively by number, either with or without a preceding “I”, and one that has an unofficial name. Although even then you’ll hear it called “285” about as often as it’s called “the Perimeter”\*. To be fair to **Doctor Jackson** , it’s a bypass around the city, so it’s not really an interstate. But it’s called Interstate 285, and gets the red-and-blue shield sign. There are a number of smaller interstates that debouch off the major interstates, such as I-675 and I-985. Interestingly, though, while you will hear Atlantans speak of “Eye-Twenny”, we never afford these spur highways the initial - they’re always “Five Seventy-Five” or “Nine Eighty-Five”. Georgia, outside Atlanta, has two other interstates that run through it for significant distances - I-95 and I-16 - and a couple that dip their toes in the state - I-59 and I-24. I don’t know how Georgians near those highways speak of them. \*The most common usage of “Perimeter” that I hear is as a cultural divider between “ITP” - “inside the Perimeter”, the land of fine restaurants, world-class institutions of the arts, and civilization - and "OTP, “outside the Perimeter”, a howling desert of Olive Gardens, WalMarts, and Trump supporters. :D. Not that those of us who live ITP are snobs, or anything. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where is “Frisco”? Never heard of it. [Frisco, North Carolina](https://www.outerbanks.com/frisco.html). Lovely little Outer Banks community, where Mrs. SMV and I like to vacation. Best beaches in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/97 "2017-08-17T03:20:36Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And the I-8. The 8 doesn’t run through North County, which seems to be the context. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/98 "2017-08-17T04:43:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Isn’t San Jose the city where there is no there there? This seems to have gotten overlooked and not answered in this thread yet. It was Oakland. (ETA: And, I suppose, still is.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/99 "2017-08-17T15:18:25Z")
“The” before larger numbers doesn’t bother me too much. But for small numbers, it just sounds completely wrong. Take “the 5” sounds a whole lot worse than “take the 405” or whatever. That said, in my area, we don’t tend to use the definite article. We do nearly always add the direction after the highway number, though. Except, for some reason, for Interstate highways, where such seems to be optional. My guess is that a number by itself just seems to not be enough. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308/100 "2017-08-17T20:23:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Two of my SF friends moved to NYC, and they were cured of calling that small village “The City” very quickly. 😛 Then again… Manhattan itself, which is what people usually mean by “New York City” has about 1.5M inhabitants today, and SF has about 800K, so it’s not exactly a village even by NYC standards. Not to disparage the other four boroughs, but legal and civic status aside, do people really think of them as conceptually and culturally part of NYC in the same way they do Manhattan? (Certain baseball venues excepted, of course!). If I addressed a letter to a Brooklyn ZIP code but gave “New York” as the city, would it get there as fast? I may be totally off base and I’ve never been there. But I may have a chance of repairing that omission very soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-northern-californians-get-upset-about-the-405/792308.md?page=6)