# Why do nurses use "c" for "with"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718 "2008-01-16T06:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kairos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecc23a/32.png) [@Kairos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kairos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/1 "2008-01-16T06:34:04Z")
So, now that I have a new job (yay!) processing accreditation for medical professionals’ continuing education, I spend a lot of my day trying to decipher doctors’ bad handwriting and nurses’ inscrutable shorthand. I’m getting the hang of it, but there’s one thing still puzzling me. Nurses write “with” as a lowercase c with a line over it. I asked a nurse friend of mine what that was all about, and she explained that the line over the c was to show that it belonged there - in other words, that it’s not a “floating” c, but is there intentionally. “Great,” says I, “but why a c?” “I have no idea.” So, teeming millions…why does a c mean “with?” And while you’re at it, why does an s mean “without”? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/2 "2008-01-16T06:39:52Z")
WAG: “c” stands for whatever the Latin equivalent is for the Spanish _con_, as in “chili con carne”. “s” stands for the Latin _sans_ ---
**Author:** ![Kairos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecc23a/32.png) [@Kairos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kairos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/3 "2008-01-16T06:45:19Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] WAG: “c” stands for whatever the Latin equivalent is for the Spanish _con_, as in “chili con carne”. “s” stands for the Latin _sans_ [/QUOTE] :smack: I should have thought of that. I suspect you’re right…thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/4 "2008-01-16T06:50:51Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] WAG: “c” stands for whatever the Latin equivalent is for the Spanish _con_, as in “chili con carne”. [/QUOTE] That’ll be “cum”. Please, hold all jokes until no children are present. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/5 "2008-01-16T06:52:05Z")
Ah yes, the fossilized Latin that hangs on in the medical world like _E. coli_ or ugly drug-vendor pens. The oddest disconnect has to be prn: It means “as needed”, but it stands for _pro re nata_, meaning “for the thing born”. What’s the logic there? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/6 "2008-01-16T07:06:35Z")
A better translation of _pro re nata_ is “as [pro] the situation [re] arises [nata]”. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/7 "2008-01-16T07:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] That’ll be “cum”. Please, hold all jokes until no children are present. [/QUOTE] There’s a village near here called Horton cum Studley. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/8 "2008-01-16T07:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] There’s a village near here called Horton cum Studley. [/QUOTE] _WELL!_ I certainly hope they don’t allow any _children_ there! ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/9 "2008-01-16T08:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] _WELL!_ I certainly hope they don’t allow any _children_ there! [/QUOTE] How on earth do you expect they’d be able to prevent the children from arriving there? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/10 "2008-01-16T08:13:13Z")
For what it’s worth, we pronounced **cum** as “coom” (rhymes with “broom”) in 9th grade Latin class. Admittedly, many of our pronunciations would have sounded like a foreign language to Marcus Antonius, but I believe this word we pronounced correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/11 "2008-01-16T09:33:46Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] How on earth do you expect they’d be able to prevent the children from arriving there? [/QUOTE] _c. interruptus._ ---
**Author:** ![WoodenTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@WoodenTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodenTaco)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/12 "2008-01-16T10:04:36Z")
[QUOTE=Kairos] And while you’re at it, why does an s mean “without”? [/QUOTE] Sine is the Latin word for “without.” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/13 "2008-01-16T10:40:09Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] _c. interruptus._ [/QUOTE] I’ll take that _cum grano salis_ :dubious: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/14 "2008-01-16T16:10:57Z")
This is the part that puzzles me: [QUOTE=Kairos] she explained that the line over the c was to show that it belonged there - in other words, that it’s not a “floating” c, but is there intentionally. [/QUOTE] Why is there a particular concern that the _c_ might be unintentional as opposed to anything else that might be written? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/15 "2008-01-16T16:12:56Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] _c. interruptus._ [/QUOTE] cum interruptus? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/16 "2008-01-16T16:19:37Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Why is there a particular concern that the _c_ might be unintentional as opposed to anything else that might be written? [/QUOTE] Well, when you’ve got a full word, there’s already some “error coding” there. If you get something that looks like “pt allenqic penicillin” you’ve got a good idea what the nurse was writing, simply because the apparent characters written makes no sense. When you have a single letter, there’s none of the redundancies that may exist to illuminate confusion caused by sloppy writing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/17 "2008-01-16T16:23:08Z")
But presumably there’s context for the _c_ in the same way as there is context for “pt allenqic penicillin,” isn’t there? I wonder if the pattern of abbreviating everything with _x_’s is related to this somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/18 "2008-01-16T16:25:37Z")
The line over the “c” for “cum” is a very old Latin manuscript convention, very similar to the “R” with a line on the tail (often rendered as “Rx”) for the Latin word “Recipe”. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/19 "2008-01-16T16:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] But presumably there’s context for the _c_ in the same way as there is context for “pt allenqic penicillin,” isn’t there? I wonder if the pattern of abbreviating everything with _x_’s is related to this somehow. [/QUOTE] You have a point, but of all the letters that I can imagine someone mistaking a stray pen mark for, only “l” or “i” are going to be more common. Then again, I’m also one of those people who put a slash through my zeros, a line in my sevens, and other cues to demystify my writing. (And there are still times I cannot read it myself if I come to it out of context.) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/20 "2008-01-16T16:35:00Z")
My only question to the OP is: Is this really the first time you’ve encountere this, and you think it’s only used by nurses? I’ve seen/used it virtually my entire life. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718.md?page=2)