# Why do nurses use "c" for "with"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718 "2008-01-16T06:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/21 "2008-01-16T16:38:17Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The line over the “c” for “cum” is a very old Latin manuscript convention, very similar to the “R” with a line on the tail (often rendered as “Rx”) for the Latin word “Recipe”. And, in English (at least in university-student shorthand) writing “w/” to mean “with.” ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/22 "2008-01-16T16:45:15Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] My only question to the OP is: Is this really the first time you’ve encountere this, and you think it’s only used by nurses? I’ve seen/used it virtually my entire life. [/QUOTE] Agreed. I first encountered the “c” and “s” with lines over them in college. And I use them daily at work, writing orders and progress notes on patients. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/23 "2008-01-16T16:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead] And, in English (at least in university-student shorthand) writing “w/” to mean “with.” [/QUOTE] I’m not sure it’s the same thing. The line over a final letter wasn’t just used with [c], but with any word ending in a final [m] (or even [n]). I don’t know but I suspect it’s to reduce minim confusion. In italic handwriting, the same up-and-down squiggle is used to make the letters \* (one minim) (two minims), [n] (two minims) and [m] (three minims). So “minimum” could be rendered |||||||||||||||. Wikipedia’s explanation is better (even if the “love / luve” example is nonsense): [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minim\_%28palaeography%29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minim_%28palaeography%29) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/24 "2008-01-16T16:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] That’ll be “cum”. Please, hold all jokes until no children are present. [/QUOTE] For record, the proper spelling of that would be “come” – although I wonder how it degraded to such. ---
**Author:** ![This\_ll\_Do](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/this_ll_do/32/3023_2.png) [@This\_ll\_Do](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_ll_Do)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/25 "2008-01-16T17:00:56Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] For record, the proper spelling of that would be “come” – although I wonder how it degraded to such. [/QUOTE] I’ve wondered this, too. Does anyone know the etymology? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/26 "2008-01-16T17:03:22Z")
To come to climax? ---
**Author:** ![This\_ll\_Do](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/this_ll_do/32/3023_2.png) [@This\_ll\_Do](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_ll_Do)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/27 "2008-01-16T17:08:31Z")
Sorry, I wasn’t specific enough: I’m curious how/why the spelling has altered from “come” to “cum.” I find the latter word irksome, for no reason I can fathom. It just bugs me. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/28 "2008-01-16T18:34:55Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] This is the part that puzzles me: Why is there a particular concern that the _c_ might be unintentional as opposed to anything else that might be written? [/QUOTE] The answer, as already given in cross purpose postings, is that the nurse didn’t know what she was talking about. The line is what makes the “c” into _cum_, meaning “with”. Medical notes contain a fascinating number of old Latin terms and abbreviations, which survive, so far as I can tell, simply because of inertia combined with a certain clubbishness. The abbreviations for _cum_ and _sine_, used for “with” and “without” instead of the perfectly serviceable w/ and w/o are a classic example. They are rarely used outside the medical field any more. Even the lawyers gave them up. 😃 Similarly, things like “oculus dexter”, or OD, for “right eye” seem kind of silly any more. Still, it was fun when I did workers’ compensation reading medical records, and having to figure out some of the more obscure terms and shorthand. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sprockets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Sprockets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sprockets)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/29 "2008-01-16T19:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Medical notes contain a fascinating number of old Latin terms and abbreviations, which survive, so far as I can tell, simply because of inertia combined with a certain clubbishness. [/QUOTE] I used to be in medical transcription, and I cannot agree more wholeheartedly. I think it’s blatant obfuscation, an old boys’ network designed to exclude patients from their own care. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/30 "2008-01-16T20:11:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sprockets] I used to be in medical transcription, and I cannot agree more wholeheartedly. I think it’s blatant obfuscation, an old boys’ network designed to exclude patients from their own care. [/QUOTE] Except that progress notes and other charting in which terms like the “c” and “s” referred to in the OP appear, are intended as communications between health professionals and are not directed towards the patient. Handouts and instructions for patients are drafted to be in straightforward English, Spanish etc. Some of the Latin phraseology may remain out of tradition, but lots of expressions and abbreviations are convenient and save time (it’s faster to write out “s” with the line above it than “without”. Similarly, OD is faster to write than “right eye”). Traditional phraseology needs to be changed not because it aggravates new medical transcriptionists and attorneys (_there’s_ heartbreak city for you), but in instances where it has an impact on patient care. For instance, it is now forbidden at my hospital to chart with certain abbreviations like “MS” (do you mean morphine sulfate or magnesium sulfate?) or use the \< or \> symbols (too easy to confuse). What I wanna complain about is all this here Internet jargon, like OP and LOL and suchlike. It’s a blatant attempt at hive-mind in-groupism. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/31 "2008-01-16T20:33:37Z")
OD is always once daily to me, never oculus dexter! Some abbreviations do make sense. BD, TDS, TID, QDS, QID, PR, PV, PO, SC, IM and IV are much, much easier, quicker and simpler to write than: Twice daily Three times a day Four times a day Rectally Vaginally Orally Subcutaneously Intramuscularly Intravenously Some medical speak sounds like waffle but is just very specific language. You have “tummy pain”, I think you have “left hypochondrial discomfort”, which is different to “left epigastric tenderness”, which is different to “left iliac fossa pain with guarding”. I know some abbreviations that are designed to give you wiggle room (does that NAD stand for No Abnormality Detected, or Not Actually Done?) Of course, some abbreviations are used specifically so that patients don’t know what you have written. We are not supposed to use them. Examples would be: FLKSAM- funny looking kid, same as mum FLKFLF- funny looking kid, funny looking family PTIWBY- patient thinks I was born yesterday GLM- good looking mum AFTM- anxious first time mum you get the idea… ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/32 "2008-01-16T20:43:24Z")
[QUOTE=This’ll Do] Sorry, I wasn’t specific enough: I’m curious how/why the spelling has altered from “come” to “cum.” I find the latter word irksome, for no reason I can fathom. It just bugs me. [/QUOTE] It hasn’t. **cum** is latin for **with**. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/33 "2008-01-16T20:49:08Z")
[QUOTE=Canadjun] It hasn’t. **cum** is latin for **with**. [/QUOTE] I think he’s referring to the sexual meaning, which is from the English verb, and not the Latin preposition. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/34 "2008-01-16T20:52:27Z")
[QUOTE=Canadjun] It hasn’t. **cum** is latin for **with**. [/QUOTE] **This’ll Do** is referring to the use of “cum” to mean “orgasmed” and, by extension, “semen.” The word “come” makes sense–you’ve come to the point of climax–but it’s been corrupted into “cum,” which bother’s **This’ll Do**. Personally, I like the separation because it avoids any potentially awkward ambiguity in writing, while still making spoken puns possible, where meaning is easier to convey. Edit: Yeah, what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/35 "2008-01-16T20:53:58Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] I’m not sure it’s the same thing. The line over a final letter wasn’t just used with [c], but with any word ending in a final [m] (or even [n]). I don’t know but I suspect it’s to reduce minim confusion. In italic handwriting, the same up-and-down squiggle is used to make the letters \* (one minim) (two minims), [n] (two minims) and [m] (three minims). So “minimum” could be rendered |||||||||||||||. Wikipedia’s explanation is better (even if the “love / luve” example is nonsense): [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minim\_%28palaeography%29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minim_%28palaeography%29) [/QUOTE] That’s really interesting. Thanks for the link, too. I like minims because they make calligraphy easier if you’re writing a Gothic script. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/36 "2008-01-16T21:23:51Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] (it’s faster to write out “s” with the line above it than “without”. Similarly, OD is faster to write than "right eye [/QUOTE] Except that, as I pointed out in my post (did you read it?) that you can write like most people do “w/” for with, which is certainly as easy, if not easier, and it’s a real stretch to assert that w/o is slower than the current abbreviation for “sine.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/37 "2008-01-16T21:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=This’ll Do] I’ve wondered this, too. Does anyone know the etymology? [/QUOTE] [Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=cum&searchmode=none) > [@](#): > > **cum** > (v. and n.) seems to be a modern (by 1973) variant of the sexual sense of come that originated in pornographic writing, perhaps first in the noun sense. … > > The sexual cum seems to have no connection with L. cum, the preposition meaning “with, together with,” which is occasionally used in English in local names of combined parishes or benifices (e.g. Chorlton-cum-Hardy), in popular Latin phrases (e.g. cum laude), or as a combining word to indicate a dual nature or function (e.g. slumber party-cum-bloodbath). ---
**Author:** ![J\_Cubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@J\_Cubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_Cubed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/38 "2008-01-16T21:56:20Z")
(e.g. slumber party-cum-bloodbath) This ranks right up there with the Snacks Cum Coffee Shop that I saw in India. I decided that I could go for some snacks and coffee, but I wouldn’t fully avail myself of their selection. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/39 "2008-01-16T22:18:16Z")
1. The use of a line above the initial letter to indicate an abbreviation was commonplace in Latin and survives in a number of situations, for example the q with macron or tilde to mean “que” or “qui” (which/who(m)) in French. The tilde started life as a replacement for a subsequent “n” and can be seen as such in various inscriptions, such as _tãto mõta_ for _tanto monta_ (“it rises as much,” part of the motto of the Catholic Monarchs); the Spanish ñ in fact started life as a double N, _annus -\> anno -\> año_, and Portuguese ã and õ started similarly (compare Spanish _versión_ to Portuguese _versão_.) 1. The ease of confusing abbreviations is a constant thorn to medical professionals and causes many patient errors. A book I have, provocatively entitled _Medical Abbreviations: 26,000 Conveniences at the Expense of Communication and Safety_, details the most dangerous abbreviations (with a view not only to homonymy but also to confusion due to sloppy handwriting, such as “u” for unit turning into a zero and causing a tenfold overdose). I think my favourites were a case in which the abbreviation “TAB” for “triple antibiotic” resulted in a patient’s wounds being irrigated with diet soda, and another in which the abbreviation “® ear” was misread, causing an irrigation to be given not in the right ear, but the rear! ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718/40 "2008-01-16T23:43:30Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] [Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=cum&searchmode=none) [/QUOTE] Dudes, [Sumer is icumin in](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer_Is_Icumen_In) I have seen it written as Sumer ys y-cumin yn in manuscrip pictures. Short jump from icumin to cum. Doest really sound like non word geeks bothered thinking to me. I have also heard someone with a seriously country brit accent that pronounced come as ‘kuum’ and strikingly close to what my english prof covering Chaucer claimed was the correct pronunciation. Check out the link to the you tube flick of a group performing it. duh 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-nurses-use-c-for-with/433718.md?page=3)